interesting run down situation

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by jicecone

"And if the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars" and What if they never play the game.

If I am wrong and you know the ruling that can correct what I am saying, Go for it and explain it instead of being a wise a**. I'm not to proud to say I might be wrong.

Non of the provisions of 7.03(a) were present, based on what we see in the video although the calling umpire might have seen it differently.
So if we say that Reyes wasn't touching (occupying) while Lowry was tagged while touching (occupying) you can't use 7.03(a) for anything.

You can use 7.08(c) to call Lowry out for being tagged off of "his" base if you read that rule literally. However Wendelstedt in his manual changes the wording to "a" base and NCAA calls it "the" base.

Otherwise, being a wise a** again, how would you rule in my presented scenarios. There are other such scenarios where your interp would require an umpire to check on the status of a preceding runner before ruling.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Non of the provisions of 7.03(a) were present, based on what we see in the video although the calling umpire might have seen it differently.
So if we say that Reyes wasn't touching (occupying) while Lowry was tagged while touching (occupying) you can't use 7.03(a) for anything.

You can use 7.08(c) to call Lowry out for being tagged off of "his" base if you read that rule literally. However Wendelstedt in his manual changes the wording to "a" base and NCAA calls it "the" base.

Otherwise, being a wise a** again, how would you rule in my presented scenarios. There are other such scenarios where your interp would require an umpire to check on the status of a preceding runner before ruling.

I never thought 7.03.a was applicable because, well, they were not both on the bag when tagged.

I was under the impression for this play, that as stated in, 7.01, "A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base." Which when applying to this play meant Reyes maintained entitlement to 3B until he was either tagged out or gained legal entitlement to the next base. The base is not a safe haven to the following runner just because he is standing on it there.

Now, as far as your scenario, I don't know any supporting rules for or against it except for what I read in 7.01 and 7.08c, if you interpret Laworie (or whatever his name is) as not being on "his" bag because he was not entitled to it. That being 3B.

So maybe the umpire needs to consider the status of the proceeding runner. Just trying to understand it too.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by jicecone

I never thought 7.03.a was applicable because, well, they were not both on the bag when tagged.

I was under the impression for this play, that as stated in, 7.01, "A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base." Which when applying to this play meant Reyes maintained entitlement to 3B until he was either tagged out or gained legal entitlement to the next base. The base is not a safe haven to the following runner just because he is standing on it there.

Now, as far as your scenario, I don't know any supporting rules for or against it except for what I read in 7.01 and 7.08c, if you interpret Laworie (or whatever his name is) as not being on "his" bag because he was not entitled to it. That being 3B.

So maybe the umpire needs to consider the status of the proceeding runner. Just trying to understand it too.

In order to exercise your entitlement you have to occupy the base. If you are not occupying the base then another runner can stand on the base and not be out if tagged unless you want IMHO to read 7.08(c) too strictly.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by umpjim

In order to exercise your entitlement you have to occupy the base. If you are not occupying the base then another runner can stand on the base and not be out if tagged unless you want IMHO to read 7.08(c) too strictly.

No, in order to exercise your entitlement , you have to (7.01) "touch" the base. Then it says "He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base".

There is no wording there about your entitlement ending if you are not occupying the base, in fact it explicitly states when your entitlement ends.

If we apply your reasoning then why does the book differentiate between being forced or not forced off a base? Why not just say your entitled to the base only when occupying it? Your suggestion basically says that the first to touch is safe and which implies the next one is out. Which makes 7.03a wrong.

If your only argument is 7.08c then we disagree because unless there is an interp out there stating otherwise "his" base can only be defined as the one the runner is entitled to. However, I am still open to being convinced otherwise with supporting rules or official interpretations.

** Having gone back to the video, even the announcers agree the correct call was made!! Which is certainly out of the norm and may be the reason some don't agree.**

[hbk314]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No, in order to exercise your entitlement , you have to (7.01) "touch" the base. Then it says "He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base".

There is no wording there about your entitlement ending if you are not occupying the base, in fact it explicitly states when your entitlement ends.

If we apply your reasoning then why does the book differentiate between being forced or not forced off a base? Why not just say your entitled to the base only when occupying it? Your suggestion basically says that the first to touch is safe and which implies the next one is out. Which makes 7.03a wrong.

If your only argument is 7.08c then we disagree because unless there is an interp out there stating otherwise "his" base can only be defined as the one the runner is entitled to. However, I am still open to being convinced otherwise with supporting rules or official interpretations.

** Having gone back to the video, even the announcers agree the correct call was made!! Which is certainly out of the norm and may be the reason some don't agree.**

Not surprisingly the announcers are wrong.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No, in order to exercise your entitlement , you have to (7.01) "touch" the base. Then it says "He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base".

There is no wording there about your entitlement ending if you are not occupying the base, in fact it explicitly states when your entitlement ends.

If we apply your reasoning then why does the book differentiate between being forced or not forced off a base? Why not just say your entitled to the base only when occupying it? Your suggestion basically says that the first to touch is safe and which implies the next one is out. Which makes 7.03a wrong.

If your only argument is 7.08c then we disagree because unless there is an interp out there stating otherwise "his" base can only be defined as the one the runner is entitled to. However, I am still open to being convinced otherwise with supporting rules or official interpretations.

** Having gone back to the video, even the announcers agree the correct call was made!! Which is certainly out of the norm and may be the reason some don't agree.**

I didn't say entitlement ends. Let's find out when a runner is out. I believe in the OP from what we discern, R1 is tagged while on a base, and the runner R3 is off the base to which he is entitled. What rule puts R1 out? And if you quote 7.08(c) I will disagree with you as the rulebook has many errors and the wording in 7.08(c) might be one of them. As evidenced by Wendstedt calling it A base and NCAA calling it THE base. Where do you find a rule that has R3 out if we agree upon he alone being on the base?

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I didn't say entitlement ends. Let's find out when a runner is out. I believe in the OP from what we discern, R1 is tagged while on a base, and the runner R3 is off the base to which he is entitled. What rule puts R1 out? And if you quote 7.08(c) I will disagree with you as the rulebook has many errors and the wording in 7.08(c) might be one of them. As evidenced by Wendstedt calling it A base and NCAA calling it THE base. Where do you find a rule that has R3 out if we agree upon he alone being on the base?

I haven't seen rule support yet.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by umpjim

I didn't say entitlement ends. Let's find out when a runner is out. I believe in the OP from what we discern, R1 is tagged while on a base, and the runner R3 is off the base to which he is entitled. What rule puts R1 out? And if you quote 7.08(c) I will disagree with you as the rulebook has many errors and the wording in 7.08(c) might be one of them. As evidenced by Wendstedt calling it A base and NCAA calling it THE base. Where do you find a rule that has R3 out if we agree upon he alone being on the base?

Here's JEA

7.03 Two runners may not occupy a base, but if; while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

Cross References: 7.01

Historical Notes: The 1920 Official Rules explained the proper enforcement when two runners ended up on the same base. (Circa 1920)

In case a runner is being run down between bases and the following runner occupies the same base the first runner has left, the second man cannot be put out while holding said base. If the first runner, however, returns safely to the base he left, and both runners are then occupying the same base, the second runner is the man out, if touched with the ball.

The 1950 recodification established the exact wording used in today's rule.

Professional Interpretation: The preceding runner is entitled to the base when two runners occupy the same base; however, if a force play has been initiated by the batter's becoming a runner, the preceding runner loses all legal rights to that base and may be retired by being tagged while still occupying the base.

On force plays, the following runner is entitled to the base.

Situations: One out, runners on second and third. The batter hits a ground ball to the third baseman who traps the runner off third. A rundown follows. The agile runner is able to get back to third safely, however, the runner from second is also standing on third base, both runners are tagged. Who is declared out?
RULING: The original runner still has the rights to third base. The runner from second shall be called out when tagged.

[hbk314]

Solution for Case Play 2013-09: Whose Base is it Anyway? | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Here's JEA

7.03 Two runners may not occupy a base, but if; while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

Cross References: 7.01

Historical Notes: The 1920 Official Rules explained the proper enforcement when two runners ended up on the same base. (Circa 1920)

In case a runner is being run down between bases and the following runner occupies the same base the first runner has left, the second man cannot be put out while holding said base. If the first runner, however, returns safely to the base he left, and both runners are then occupying the same base, the second runner is the man out, if touched with the ball.

The 1950 recodification established the exact wording used in today's rule.

Professional Interpretation: The preceding runner is entitled to the base when two runners occupy the same base; however, if a force play has been initiated by the batter's becoming a runner, the preceding runner loses all legal rights to that base and may be retired by being tagged while still occupying the base.

On force plays, the following runner is entitled to the base.

Situations: One out, runners on second and third. The batter hits a ground ball to the third baseman who traps the runner off third. A rundown follows. The agile runner is able to get back to third safely, however, the runner from second is also standing on third base, both runners are tagged. Who is declared out?
RULING: The original runner still has the rights to third base. The runner from second shall be called out when tagged.

Thanks Rita, if this doesn't work I don't know what will.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Here's JEA

7.03 Two runners may not occupy a base, but if; while the ball is alive, two runners are touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged. The preceding runner is entitled to the base.

Cross References: 7.01

Historical Notes: The 1920 Official Rules explained the proper enforcement when two runners ended up on the same base. (Circa 1920)

In case a runner is being run down between bases and the following runner occupies the same base the first runner has left, the second man cannot be put out while holding said base. If the first runner, however, returns safely to the base he left, and both runners are then occupying the same base, the second runner is the man out, if touched with the ball.

The 1950 recodification established the exact wording used in today's rule.

Professional Interpretation: The preceding runner is entitled to the base when two runners occupy the same base; however, if a force play has been initiated by the batter's becoming a runner, the preceding runner loses all legal rights to that base and may be retired by being tagged while still occupying the base.

On force plays, the following runner is entitled to the base.

Situations: One out, runners on second and third. The batter hits a ground ball to the third baseman who traps the runner off third. A rundown follows. The agile runner is able to get back to third safely, however, the runner from second is also standing on third base, both runners are tagged. Who is declared out?
RULING: The original runner still has the rights to third base. The runner from second shall be called out when tagged.

Thank you Rita, this is the closest authoritative ruling I have seen here. I believe it is still in conflict with 7.01 but if that is the official interpretation then I can accept it.

I am going to keep researching for my own peace of mind though.

Again, Thank you.