Interesting Situation 2

[Rar]

Thanks for all the comments on my first thread situation last week, I think it generated good discussion and even set some of the experts out to test their own knowledge.

Saw another odd situation this week. This situation is complicated and certainly interesting to me. Maybe there is something in the rule book that DIRECTLY addresses this that i'm forgetting about....maybe not:

6.9 seconds left in the 4th of a Boys varsity bball contest, in which the score is Team A (Home) 59 and Team B (Visitor) 57. Team B inbounds from their backcourt endline and tosses the ball to the freethrow line of their backcourt, starting the clock. This player dribbles up the court and reaches just over the half court line where the clock reads about 3 seconds. At this point you can hear a teammate wide open some feet in from the three point line on the left side screaming "Pass it Pass it." The kid with the ball obviously hears him and looks to him and is staring at him with 2.1 seconds left. He then throws the ball up (looked half like a pass and half like a shot..hard to explain) but the ball ends up not even close to contacting the rim, but closer to the kid that was screaming for the pass. This kid lunges forward for the ball and throws it up, but obviously time has expired.

The trick is there is a push foul called on the defense, in which they fouled the "shooter". Now the thing is, WAS HE SHOOTING? Does he get the 3 shots, or the 1 and 1 (it was regular bonus at the time, not double). If this is ruled as a pass, he gets the bonus...if it's a shot he gets the 3 shots.

Taking into consideration the rules and common sense...I get:

Things in favor of it being a shot: The motion he launched the ball from looked more like a shot I suppose. His head and eye motion glanced away from the kid that was screaming (pass me the ball) and towards the rim (although he ended up looking somewhere in between the rim and the kid).

Things in favor of it being a pass: 2.1 seconds were left, the kid knew that because the coach yelled (3 seconds trevor), thus he was aware of the time. The fact he was aware there was some time left tells me it might have been a pass to the wide open man, because that's an easier shot to make (and he thought he had the time). Also, when he began his motion to get rid of the ball, he was looking directly at the open player and was well aware of him. Finally, when the open kid shouted "Pass it" the "shooter" said something of his own. He said "Got ya" as he threw the ball up.

Now I figure some of you will say "the rule book doesn't allow us to split hairs and analyze it the way u did." I understand that, i'm just trying to give everyone the most accurate feel for the situation as possible. There are a lot of competing factors in my mind that cast doubt on the fact this is a shot. I have a feeling a lot of you will say "rule it as a shot and shoot 3" because it isn't our job to read the minds of the shooter. In most situations I agree, but this one may be different. Is there enough here to give the official knowledge that this was a pass? The "Got Ya" uttered by the "shooter" could be taken a lot of different ways. Bottom line, this comes down to what constitutes a try.

If I had to bet my life on one side or the other, i'd say it was a pass. However, by a comment I heard from the kid that shot it after the game, I know what it was. He was passing the ball. The officials gave him 3 shots as an airborne shooter. Team B hit all three and ended up winning the game by a point.

EDIT: I should clear this up. The foul occurred and was whistled right after the ball left the "shooters" hands, while he was still in the air.


[Edited by Rar on Feb 19th, 2005 at 03:53 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rar

Now I figure some of you will say "the rule book doesn't allow us to split hairs and analyze it the way u did."

The rule book doesn't allow us to split hairs and analze it the way you did.

Common sense doesn't allow us to split hairs and analyze it the way you did.

As an official,you either say "that's a shot--3 FT's" or you say "that's a pass- 1/1". End of story. Whatever you do decide, you do it quickly and authoratively. That's your job out there. Iow, leave the analyzing up to the tv announcers.

Rar, you're thinking way too much. Just call the game.

[rainmaker]

Rar --

You've missed the salient points. Was the shooter the star player? Was the fouling defender the star player? Had the home AD given you a towel and a key to the official's locker room? Had the away coach congratulated you before the game started on how good a player you'd been? Did your partner wear a belt, or patent leather shoes? Had she called any of your lines? Had the clock person behaved herself, or was she shaking her head every time you called a foul against home? Was anyone from this baord involved in the game or observing or ever done a game with either of these teams?

Obviously, when you've got more experience, you'll be able to analyze situations like this better and you'll be more likely to call them correctly!

[tjones1]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The rule book doesn't allow us to split hairs and analze it the way you did.

Common sense doesn't allow us to split hairs and analyze it the way you did.

As an official,you either say "that's a shot--3 FT's" or you say "that's a pass- 1/1". End of story. Whatever you do decide, you do it quickly and authoratively. That's your job out there. Iow, leave the analyzing up to the tv announcers.

Rar, you're thinking way too much. Just call the game.

Good point JR. It's your call, however in a situation like this you've got to sell it so come out strong with your call.

[stick]

They try to do that in the NBA all the time. Not being there it's difficult to say what I would have called. I'm not one to split hairs either. Based on how you describe it the question I have: was this an obvious push or just a slight nudge? For me to call a foul with that little time left it has to be REAL obvious.

[Stan]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Rar --

You've missed the salient points. Was the shooter the star player? Was the fouling defender the star player? Had the home AD given you a towel and a key to the official's locker room? Had the away coach congratulated you before the game started on how good a player you'd been? Did your partner wear a belt, or patent leather shoes? Had she called any of your lines? Had the clock person behaved herself, or was she shaking her head every time you called a foul against home? Was anyone from this baord involved in the game or observing or ever done a game with either of these teams?

Obviously, when you've got more experience, you'll be able to analyze situations like this better and you'll be more likely to call them correctly!

What was the kids number? 0 or 00 maybe

[tjones1]

Originally posted by Stan

What was the kids number? 0 or 00 maybe

Ha Ha. Actually I helped out with a 6th girls game on Thursday. They had numbers like: 71, 39, 47, 63. It felt so odd reporting fouls on these players.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by tjones1

Ha Ha. Actually I helped out with a 6th girls game on Thursday. They had numbers like: 71, 39, 47, 63. It felt so odd reporting fouls on these players.

If the numbers were 72, 38, 46 and 62, would you have felt even?

[tjones1]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

If the numbers were 72, 38, 46 and 62, would you have felt even?

[Rar]

Oh..we must have differing views on the roles of officials then. The official IS THE analyzer of the rules. An official is also the enforcer. So, by telling me I am inexperienced because I analyze something a lot is..well stupid. If i'm going to have a ruling that could effect the end result of a contest, i'm going to make sure im doing my thing RIGHT. Not try to quickly sell a bull**** call just to look like I have authority, when I wasn't really sure either way. That's called a dream world.

[tjones1]

And if you sit there and analyze the play in your mind, you are going to look...well stupid. If you stand there and analyze the play it's going to look like you don't the rules, etc. The point is, no one can make the call on this board because it's a judgment call---you have to see it to call it. When you called the foul, did you think he was shooting or passing? Shooting: two shots (or three). Passing: OOB spot, bonus or double bonus.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Rar
Oh..we must have differing views on the roles of officials then. The official IS THE analyzer of the rules. An official is also the enforcer. So, by telling me I am inexperienced because I analyze something a lot is..well stupid. If i'm going to have a ruling that could effect the end result of a contest, i'm going to make sure im doing my thing RIGHT. Not try to quickly sell a bull**** call just to look like I have authority, when I wasn't really sure either way. That's called a dream world.

We certainly do have differing views on the role of an official. If you half-a$$ed know what you're doing as an official, you don't have to conduct a review and a synopsis before you make a call. Indecisiveness is not a particularly good trait to have as an official.

You asked the question. If the answer wasn't to your liking, that doesn't necessarily make that answer "stupid".

Btw, here's another little bit of advice you can ignore. If you're not really sure of a call, don't make that call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 19th, 2005 at 06:00 PM]

[RollTide]

As I was 'analyzing' the initial post, one particular part of the situation baffles me.

We're down to less than 5 seconds in a 2 point game and the visiting team has the ball. I'm wondering if this game was played without any fans in attendance, because you could hear a player close to the goal yell "pass it", and you could hear the passer/shooter yell "gotcha"???

Most of the games I've worked that came down to the last shot, we had trouble hearing our whistles or the horn because the of the decibel level of the screaming fans.

Do the players where you officiate wear microphones? lol

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by RollTide
As I was 'analyzing' the initial post, one particular part of the situation baffles me.

We're down to less than 5 seconds in a 2 point game and the visiting team has the ball. I'm wondering if this game was played without any fans in attendance, because you could hear a player close to the goal yell "pass it", and you could hear the passer/shooter yell "gotcha"???

Most of the games I've worked that came down to the last shot, we had trouble hearing our whistles or the horn because the of the decibel level of the screaming fans.

Do the players where you officiate wear microphones? lol

Speaking of that....

Friday night. Very small gym. Every seat taken and another 30-40 people standing in each corner of the gym. V down by 1 with a throwin on the frontcourt sideline in front of their bench with 1.1 seconds on the clock. The only clock in the gym is on the wall behind the baseline on this end and on the side opposite the table.

Two man mechanics. My partner is trail and is administering the throwin...has the last shot...etc. All players are ball side. I'm lead, on ball side.

A5 breaks toward basket, the noise is tremendous. Lob pass thrown into the paint. I'm all over it...clean...shot goes up...bounces on rim a couple of times, comes back down, rebounded by A, shoots again.

The place is flooded with noise...V is running around like they've won the game. I look to may partner for his call...he just stands there. After a couple of seconds has starts to make a very weak "count it" call. I can tell he's not sure and is guessing. I run out to him and ask...do you "know" if it was before the horn....did you hear the horn? He responded "no, I couldn't tell."

I tell my partner that, while I couldn't hear the horn either, I was counting as a backup and was well beyond 1.1 seconds. In addition, there is no way that a player can get off two shots in 1.1 seconds. The first was a 0.3-0.4 type of shot. The rebound and 2nd shot, was not as quick...more like 0.5-0.6. By the time you count the bouncing on the rim a couple of times, you have 1.5-2.0 seconds.

I confer with the scorer (who is provided by the home team...who will win if the shot is disallowed). He says the 2nd shot was well after time had expired.

His assessment agrees with mine.

My partner and I confer again. I/We cancel the bucket.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

My partner and I confer again. I/We cancel the bucket.
[/B][/QUOTE]Couldn't handle it any better than that. Great job, Camron.