Interesting situation

[Refsmitty]

I am a local HS referee. My neighbor is the clock keeper for the local school. Our school held a regional final which was attended by 2500 or so people. Loud - I watched the game - could hardly hear the officials whistle.

Sit - 1 minute or so to go - coach farthest away from the end where the officials were - trying to call time out during dead ball - could not be heard and could not get refs attention. Clock keeper gave a quick buzz of the horn... he wonders if he did the right thing... I have never read anything about this in the rules or case book... but I doubt if it is the right thing...

Help please....

Haven't had that one... it really shouldn't matter but out of curiosity, was it a 2 or 3 person game?

[Refsmitty]

3 man - I wondered the same thing - why wasn't the table being watched or the official anticipating a TO

[grunewar]

I am a referee, but was pressed into clock operator duties earlier in the yr for F/JV HS games.

One game, between two foul shots, V coach was asking for a TO and the refs didn't hear it/see it - for whatever reason. Since there was a dead ball between foul shots, I sounded the horn. R looked at me and came over to the table. I informed him what I had (coach requesting TO).

He granted the TO and told me never to do that again. I informed him that I thought I was part of the "referee team" and had infomation for him during a dead ball. He said it wasn't my job. I didn't argue the point, as I thought I was "helping." He disagreed.

When I came back home and looked it up in the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules under Rule 2, Section 12, Timer's Duties, it certainly doesn't say anything about "being a helper."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

... he wonders if he did the right thing...

No.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Refsmitty

trying to call time out during dead ball - could not be heard and could not get refs attention. Clock keeper gave a quick buzz of the horn... he wonders if he did the right thing...

If I were the opposing coach I would be RIPPED!! If I were the visiting coach, I would be incensed that the timer helped out his own team getting the time-out. If I were the home coach, I would be ripped that the timer negated our home court advantage.

Not the right decision, IMHO.

[Refsmitty]

I totally agree!

That being said, what was the result? Did the officials grant the TO after the table helped them to recognize the request?

[Nevadaref]

The action that the timer undertook was perfectly reasonable. If I were a game official, I wouldn't have any problem with it. The HC was making a time-out request at a proper time and deserved to have it granted.

Please note that the HC can go to the table and request a time-out any time that he wishes and challenge a situation as a correctable error or a scoring or timing mistake. When the HC makes such a request the timer/scorer is to signal the officials as soon as that team is in control of the ball or the ball next becomes dead.
If the HC is incorrect about the error, his team gets charged with a time-out and they are permitted to utilize any remaining time after the determination regarding the error is made.
So all that the HC had to say in the situation presented by the OP is that he asked the table for a time-out because he could not get that attention of any of the game officials and that he thought that there might have been a timing (or other) error. At the point when an official comes over he just agrees that there wasn't an error and gets charged with the time-out, which is what he wanted.

2-11-3 The scorer shall: . . . Signal the officials by using the game horn or a sounding device
unlike that used by the referee and umpire(s). This may be used immediately if,
or as soon as, the ball is dead or is in control of the offending team.

5-8-4 . . . Responds to the scorer’s signal to grant a coach’s request that a
correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession
mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer’s table where a coach of each team may be present.

10-5-1c. The head coach may stand and/or leave the coaching box to confer with
personnel at the scorer’s table to request a time-out as in 5-8-4.

It would take a pretty knowledgable coach to pull that one off...

[Refsmitty]

The official did grant the time out. The scorer for the other team went beserk... was warned by game admin - and later apologized.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The action that the timer undertook was perfectly reasonable. If I were a game official, I wouldn't have any problem with it. The HC was making a time-out request at a proper time and deserved to have it granted.

Please note that the HC can go to the table and request a time-out any time that he wishes and challenge a situation as a correctable error or a scoring or timing mistake. When the HC makes such a request the timer/scorer is to signal the officials as soon as that team is in control of the ball or the ball next becomes dead.
If the HC is incorrect about the error, his team gets charged with a time-out and they are permitted to utilize any remaining time after the determination regarding the error is made.
So all that the HC had to say in the situation presented by the OP is that he asked the table for a time-out because he could not get that attention of any of the game officials and that he thought that there might have been a timing (or other) error. At the point when an official comes over he just agrees that there wasn't an error and gets charged with the time-out, which is what he wanted.

2-11-3 The scorer shall: . . . Signal the officials by using the game horn or a sounding device
unlike that used by the referee and umpire(s). This may be used immediately if,
or as soon as, the ball is dead or is in control of the offending team.

5-8-4 . . . Responds to the scorer’s signal to grant a coach’s request that a
correctable error, as in 2-10, or a timing, scoring or alternating-possession
mistake be prevented or rectified. The appeal to the official shall be presented at the scorer’s table where a coach of each team may be present.

10-5-1c. The head coach may stand and/or leave the coaching box to confer with
personnel at the scorer’s table to request a time-out as in 5-8-4.

In the OP the HC did not request the timer sound the horn. The timer accomplshed this action upon his own volition.

Plus, are you suggesting the HC lie/cheat to get his request in?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the OP the HC did not request the timer sound the horn. The timer accomplshed this action upon his own volition.

Plus, are you suggesting the HC lie/cheat to get his request in?

1. I have no problem whatsoever with the action of the timer. Anyone who does is missing the big picture. The HC made the timer aware that he wanted a time-out. That's the bottom line here.

2. I would think that the HC would simply tell the table personnel to give him a time-out. I seriously doubt that he would specify that it was for an error situation. Since the table personnel doesn't know why the HC is requesting the time-out through them, they would have to assume it is being done under 2-10 and follow that procedure--meaning to signal the officials. The HC doesn't have to lie/cheat at all. He just doesn't get specific.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In the OP the HC did not request the timer sound the horn. The timer accomplshed this action upon his own volition.

Plus, are you suggesting the HC lie/cheat to get his request in?

He is suggesting that. And it's quite cowardly of him, don't you think?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I have no problem whatsoever with the action of the timer. Anyone who does is missing the big picture. The HC made the timer aware that he wanted a time-out. That's the bottom line here.

2. I would think that the HC would simply tell the table personnel to give him a time-out. I seriously doubt that he would specify that it was for an error situation. Since the table personnel doesn't know why the HC is requesting the time-out through them, they would have to assume it is being done under 2-10 and follow that procedure--meaning to signal the officials. The HC doesn't have to lie/cheat at all. He just doesn't get specific.

So you would have no problem with coaches doing this on a regular basis? Or if you happen to catch them out the box near the table they could say they were requesting a time-out?