interesting situation

jtarantine · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 04:38pm

situation that i heard about. would like to know exactly what the rules say and what SHOULD have happened in this situation (girls 8th grade b-ball):

1) team A player gets 5th foul... (does coach get 30 or sixty seconds to replace player?) coach calls team over for a huddle during this substitution period.
2) during the substitution period, team a player steps out of bounds while coach huddles with his players (should have team a player received this technical)
3) then, official goes over to team a coach to discuss technical foul. coach doesn't want to hear explanation (but isn't rude, just wants to talk to his players). official gives team a coach a technical and kicks him out of the game.

Did the initial tech count towards coaches ejection? my understanding is that the 1st tech was an indirect bench tech which shouldn't have counted towards the coaches ejection.

i don't know any additional information. could you please just answer my questions regarding the info that i have presented.

by the way... outcome... team a loses by 3 points and loses outright league championship

jtarantine · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 04:43pm

sorry if i didn't make this clear... (#2 in the intial post)When the player stepped out of bounds during the team huddle, the official immediately called a technical foul...

DownTownTonyBrown · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:20pm

By NFHS rules

#1 This is okay. 30 to make substitution. Coach can have huddle for 25 of those second if he wants. This is not a time for an official to be near his bench; GET AWAY ! You have already upset him by fouling out his player if you stand there tapping your toe until he gives you a sub then you are creating a confrontational situation. Let the coach do his thing. No sub by 30 seconds (you better have had the timer start the 30 second countdown)... now T him.

#2 I already told you to get away. The huddle is none of your business. The ball is dead; no player technical should have been given. Now you really got him PSSD.

#3 Corollary to Get Away is STAY AWAY. The official has created a confrontational situation where the coach cannot win. If you step into his huddle or his bench area when he is already upset, the only way you will come out is running or without a coach for the rest of the game.

Coach is disqualified after two direct T's or three indirects (the indirect counts like 1/2 of a direct - so 1 direct + 2 indirect also = disqualification).

From your scenario the coach should not have been disqualified having received only 1 direct technical. The incorrect technical on the player was not anything to the coach besides more frustration. Yes, a T on the bench would count towards the coaches disqualification. This incorrect T however was on a player that was in the game and should not be credited to the coach.

Somebody hosed this game up badly. Hope you learned some good lessons and won't allow this kind of thing to happen in one of your games.

Well see what others say.

jtarantine · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:27pm

i was told this story by the 7th grade girls coach from the same team. he often comes to me when he has 'officials' questions. when he told me about what happened, i was shocked. i couldn't believe that any of those events happened. both techs were b.s., and the fact that on TOP of all that he threw out the coach, and to top it all off even MORE, they lost the league championship...

wow... my mouth dropped.

pizanno · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:30pm

i hope you edified the assignor, or at least the official, so it doesn't happen again...

MN 3 Sport Ref · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
By NFHS rules

#1 This is okay. 30 to make substitution. Coach can have huddle for 25 of those second if he wants. This is not a time for an official to be near his bench; GET AWAY ! You have already upset him by fouling out his player if you stand there tapping your toe until he gives you a sub then you are creating a confrontational situation. Let the coach do his thing. No sub by 30 seconds (you better have had the timer start the 30 second countdown)... now T him.

#2 I already told you to get away. The huddle is none of your business. The ball is dead; no player technical should have been given. Now you really got him PSSD.

#3 Corollary to Get Away is STAY AWAY. The official has created a confrontational situation where the coach cannot win. If you step into his huddle or his bench area when he is already upset, the only way you will come out is running or without a coach for the rest of the game.

Coach is disqualified after two direct T's or three indirects (the indirect counts like 1/2 of a direct - so 1 direct + 2 indirect also = disqualification).

From your scenario the coach should not have been disqualified having received only 1 direct technical. The incorrect technical on the player was not anything to the coach besides more frustration. Yes, a T on the bench would count towards the coaches disqualification. This incorrect T however was on a player that was in the game and should not be credited to the coach.

Somebody hosed this game up badly. Hope you learned some good lessons and won't allow this kind of thing to happen in one of your games.

Well see what others say.

Tony:

I agree w/ everything you have said above including the screwing up of this game royally. The coach can have a conference w/ his players during the 30 sec. replacement period as long as he has a sub reported at 30. No tech here for "instructing" players. Is this misguided official giving a T to the team A player for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason??(10.3.4) I can find nothing to back up that going OOB during a dead ball is illegal. even if this were true the T would be charged to the player and not the coach. The only rationalle I could see for his being tossed was a T for not replacing the DQ'd player and then another for arguing (2 direct).

It sounds like to me???maybe this official had a beef w/ the coach or an interest in the outcome of the game (I sure the he11 hope not) and he abused his power to the extreme. This is kind of a disturbing story if the facts are as they are described...

pizanno · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 05:38pm

west coast, bay-bee!

other thought: mostly, coaches have no clue about the rule, and may get caught up with coaching team rather than keeping track of the 30 seconds.

Preventative officiating:
* I tell the timer to give me a warning horn at 20
* After the warning horn, I walk over to the bench and say "Coach, if you don't give me a sub immediately, I have to assess a T"

oatmealqueen · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 29, 2003, 08:44pm

Ya know... it's stories like this that perpetuate myths about officials.. That we are on power trips, confrontational, spoiling for fights.
A lot of the good that we do, goes right down the tube, when some officials misbehave.

jtarantine · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 30, 2003, 08:29am

just a follow up on the story (i just found this out this morning)...

by league rules, because the coach was kicked out of the game for 2 technical fouls (unjustly), he ALSO has to miss the next 2 games, which happen to be postseason tournament games (there are only a maximium of 3 games in the tournament).

and, he's crushed about this, because he's one of the most mild-mannered coaches you will find. in fact, he never had received a technical foul prior to this game.

... sad