Safe on 2nd, goes back to 1st

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I still feel the Comment in 7.01 is to be interpreted as, "Once the pitcher assumes the rubber, a runner cannot return." I don't believe the rules makers intended it to apply at any time after the next pitch or play from when the runner first obtains the advanced base.

Fair enough ... and you're certainly not alone in reading it that way.

Others read it to mean WHILE the pitcher is on the rubber. I bet if you polled 100 umpires, you'd get between 40 and 60 on either side of this. The argument has been mulled before.

OTOH - you have this example, in a real game, with real MLB umpires, who ruled that he could, in fact, return to first. And the last time we hashed this out, it was the same thing... MLB umps, runner allowed to go back to first (that one was an overslide of 2nd, kind of similar play if you take Braun away). So ... given 2 actual plays, and no evidence of MLB coming out saying they screwed it up (either time) ... which way you wanna go?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes ... but Segura is no longer touching the bag about a half second after Braun was tagged. Had Braun not been tagged, he would have been "past Segura" about a half second later.

A quote that is not exactly a quote... and the part that is not exactly a quote is the part I would disagree with - you've inferred something and then included it in the quote.

I didn't quote anything.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair enough ... and you're certainly not alone in reading it that way.

Others read it to mean WHILE the pitcher is on the rubber. I bet if you polled 100 umpires, you'd get between 40 and 60 on either side of this. The argument has been mulled before.

OTOH - you have this example, in a real game, with real MLB umpires, who ruled that he could, in fact, return to first. And the last time we hashed this out, it was the same thing... MLB umps, runner allowed to go back to first (that one was an overslide of 2nd, kind of similar play if you take Braun away). So ... given 2 actual plays, and no evidence of MLB coming out saying they screwed it up (either time) ... which way you wanna go?

Not necessarily that way. Top level umpires aren't necessarily the best interpreters of the rules. And perhaps MLB didn't think it was worth digging deeper into. I read nothing into any of that.

[DG]

It was years ago, but I was BU in a game where R1 stole 2b with no throw, and for some reason got up, dusted himself off and trotted nonchalant back to 1b. There was no play on him. I think everyone was stunned, me included as I watched him trot back.

We left him at 1b for the next pitch.

[thumpferee]

I was BU on a JV game which followed the V game. The offensive team was leading substantially and it was getting dark, so the 1st base coach was sending his runners in an attempt to get them thrown out to get the game over with.(gotta love him) About 6 runners in 2 innings.

Anyway, one runner was safe at 2nd. The ball went back to the pitcher and I see R2 heading back to 1st. I looked at the coach and shrugged my shoulders, he said "let's try this again".

He stayed at 1st!

[johnnyg08]

It's now official. Jean Segura has "stolen" first base for the last time.

And so, for that matter, has everyone else.

This is it, friends -- the third and final episode of our Jean Segura baserunning trilogy, soon not to be made into a major motion picture.

Major League Baseball's baseball operations department has sent out what was described to us as a "clarification" memo to all its umpires. The gist of it is that, in the future, baserunning adventures like Segura's now-legendary backwards trip around the infield last Friday should end with a slightly different outcome than his did.

By which we mean: He should have been called out!

Never saw that coming. Did you?

Well, you did if you were reading this blog Sunday afternoon. We kind of foreshadowed it here then. But let's recap.

It was Friday night. The Brewers shortstop had just stolen second base. Then, with runners on first and second, he took off to try to steal third, wound up in a rundown and somehow, finally, when the dust had settled, found himself all the way back on first. (For more of the wacky details, you might want to click here.

Impossible, you say? Well, that's not what the umpires said at the time.

They cited an addendum to ever-popular MLB rule 7:08(i) which appears to allow a runner who has been decoyed or became otherwise confused to scramble all the way back to first, even if he's already passed second

.
Oops. Wrong rule.

We all know that now, and so do the umpires. The clarification tells them that not just one other rule, but two, should have superseded that one. And both of those rules would have led to the same outcome.

By which we mean again (let's all sing it together): OUT.

Those two rules are these:

• Rule 7:01 says a runner can't settle in at one base and then return to a previous base once the pitcher "assumes his pitching position." In other words, a runner on second can't go back to first for any reason once the pitcher has thrown a pitch -- let alone several, as happened in Segura's case.

• Then there's Rule 7:08(a), which includes a specific comment about a fellow like Segura, who thought he was out, was on his way to the dugout, then found out he was safe and pulled into first for safekeeping. That comment reads like this:

"Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

So what's that mean? It means, in Segura's case, he should have been called out because he "abandoned his effort" to keep running the bases when he left second base "and started towards the first base line."

All righty then. Got all that? Sure hope so. There's going to be a quiz

.
But at least we'll also get another quiz out of this circus that goes like this:

Who's the only player in the last 60 years to steal a base and get thrown out stealing the same base in a span of five pitches?

The answer to that one is Jean Segura, of course. But it sure is a good thing he didn't go on to steal second twice and then score the winning run. Right?

If he had, we're guessing we'd have a lot more than a memo of clarification on our hands.

[bob jenkins]

Good answer. Any link to the official memo (or official press release or similar describing the memo)?

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

By which we mean: He should have been called out!


Those two rules are these:

• Rule 7:01 says a runner can't settle in at one base and then return to a previous base once the pitcher "assumes his pitching position." In other words, a runner on second can't go back to first for any reason once the pitcher has thrown a pitch -- let alone several, as happened in Segura's case.

• Then there's Rule 7:08(a), which includes a specific comment about a fellow like Segura, who thought he was out, was on his way to the dugout, then found out he was safe and pulled into first for safekeeping. That comment reads like this:

"Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the base path heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases."

So what's that mean? It means, in Segura's case, he should have been called out because he "abandoned his effort" to keep running the bases when he left second base "and started towards the first base line."
.

When did the pitcher have the ball or throw a pitch during that play? He was already on 1st when he took the mound again.

When did he abandoned his effort? While running to 1st? Maybe I didn't see the whole play, because I sure didn't see him go into the dugout in the clip.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

When did the pitcher have the ball or throw a pitch during that play? He was already on 1st when he took the mound again.

When did he abandoned his effort? While running to 1st? Maybe I didn't see the whole play, because I sure didn't see him go into the dugout in the clip.

The points of the memo seem to be (based on this reporting):

1) It's whether the pitcher *ever* takes the mound once the advance base has been obtained that counts, not once per "play"

2) Abandonment can be called before the runner gets to foul territory (or to the dugout).

[UmpJM]

thumpferee,

At the end of the PREVIOUS play.

Bob,

I looked and wasn't able to find anything on the mlb.com website. Yet.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

If this is MLB's stand, then at least we know it now. However, I want to see it from an actual MLB source first, especially given that 7.08 is not even remotely in play here... I have skepticism that this description came from MLB ... it seems to conversational and reporterish ... and not "official".

[thumpferee]

Thanks Bob and JM!

Makes more sense now.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If this is MLB's stand, then at least we know it now. However, I want to see it from an actual MLB source first, especially given that 7.08 is not even remotely in play here... I have skepticism that this description came from MLB ... it seems to conversational and reporterish ... and not "official".

This was reported by Jayson Stark on ESPN.
The final ruling on Jean Segura's baserunning misadventures - ESPN

He cites a memo from MLB...which I am still looking for.

[BayStateRef]

Can't find the memo...but the New York Times confirms it.

On Wednesday M.L.B. finished its internal review, which also determined Segura should have been out based on both of those.

Jean Segura's Reverse Trip on the Bases Is Sorted Out - NYTimes.com