Safe on 2nd, goes back to 1st

[Rich Ives]

BTW: You can throw to an unoccupied if it's to make a play. As the runner was stealing a throw to 3B would be legal.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

BTW: You can throw to an unoccupied if it's to make a play. As the runner was stealing a throw to 3B would be legal.

As Rich stated, you can throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play. Many people don't read the second part of the rule.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by SAWolf

Hi,

Here is the clip:
MIL: Top Plays | CHC@MIL: Segura's wacky baserunning does not end well - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Isn't there an obstruction as Segura is returning to 2nd base? And, doesn't Segura get tagged while off the base?

[SAWolf]

Ok, I reread the rule on the pitcher disengaging (break) from the plate:

In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.

When the pitcher disengages the rubber, he must drop his hands to his sides.

I didn't see the pitcher do either. But I also reread the unoccupied base rule:

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

So if the runner is stealing you may just step and throw to the base that he is going to? You don't have to 'break' or disengage? Interesting I always thought that you had to...

I also checked the rule on running bases in reverse order:

7.08 Any runner is out when—(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The
umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;
Rule 7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.

So then going all the way back to one was actually legal? Wow!

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

3. I don't know about crazy, but certainly ignorant of the rule.

Ignorant of which rule?

Rita

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Ignorant of which rule?

Rita

The rule that says he is entitled to 2nd base and is not out (correctly signaled by U2).

[Manny A]

Ok, now that I saw the play:

1. There is no balk on the pitcher. He did step toward second and did not throw, then disengaged and threw to third, all of which is legal.

2. There was no obstruction on F4. He backpedalled and got out of Segura's way at the last second.

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

And Rich, there was at least one pitch delivered to Braun after Segura stole second, for Ball Four that put Braun on first (I assume only one pitch; there could have been more fouled off before the walk that the video replay didn't show). So are you still advocating that Segura can legally return to first base?

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

[Robmoz]

There are several rules to consider when looking for support on this situation. Check out this link below and it will walk you through the the scenarios ...

Solution for Case Play 2013-03: Segura as R2 Steals First | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

and it also has a video clip ....

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CHC@MIL: Segura's wacky baserunning does not end well - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

[Robmoz]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, now that I saw the play:

1. There is no balk on the pitcher. He did step toward second and did not throw, then disengaged and threw to third, all of which is legal.

2. There was no obstruction on F4. He backpedalled and got out of Segura's way at the last second.

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

And Rich, there was at least one pitch delivered to Braun after Segura stole second, for Ball Four that put Braun on first (I assume only one pitch; there could have been more fouled off before the walk that the video replay didn't show). So are you still advocating that Segura can legally return to first base?

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

R1 is not guilty of passing preceding runner R2 as simultaneous occupation is not passing.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAWolf

Ok, I reread the rule on the pitcher disengaging (break) from the plate:





I didn't see the pitcher do either. But I also reread the unoccupied base rule:

He didn't do either. But, he did make a (legal) move to second and as part of that he came off the rubber so he's now an infielder and can throw anywhere.

So if the runner is stealing you may just step and throw to the base that he is going to? You don't have to 'break' or disengage? Interesting I always thought that you had to...

A common myth that really shouldn't be a myth.

I also checked the rule on running bases in reverse order:


So then going all the way back to one was actually legal? Wow!

I don't think 7.08 is the relevant rule. I think it's 7.01

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

To be out for passing you have to be ENTIRELY past the runner. Fully and completely. Until just after Braun is tagged, he was never fully and entirely past Segura's foot.

That said, look at 0:28 on the video. After Braun is tagged, Segura is OFF the base and tagged again.

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

I don't believe this was illegal. Describe the part of 7.01 to us that leads you to believe he can't return to first.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To be out for passing you have to be ENTIRELY past the runner. Fully and completely. Until just after Braun is tagged, he was never fully and entirely past Segura's foot.

It is impossible for both to be touching the base in this way and rule that one has passed the other.

7.01 comment - once the pitcher takes his position R2 has title to second base and can't return to first. He can't go from being an R2 to being an R1.

I don't consider J/R gospel in any way, but in this case I think they're right. Segura should be called out pretty quickly once he heads back to first base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

It is impossible for both to be touching the base in this way and rule that one has passed the other.

Yes ... but Segura is no longer touching the bag about a half second after Braun was tagged. Had Braun not been tagged, he would have been "past Segura" about a half second later.

7.01 comment - once the pitcher takes his position R2 has title to second base and can't return to first. He can't go from being an R2 to being an R1.

A quote that is not exactly a quote... and the part that is not exactly a quote is the part I would disagree with - you've inferred something and then included it in the quote.

[MD Longhorn]

For the record:

Originally Posted by OBR Rule 7.01

A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.
Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

First ... Comments are meant to explain the rules, and not augment or change them. Second - many who read this (including the site referenced above) believe this comment is not meant to apply once the pitcher steps off.

More fundamentally, though... the RULE does not state in any manner that the runner cannot, in the normal course of play (for instance, while avoiding a player trying to tag him) move backward beyond a base he is "entitled to". The comment leads one to believe he cannot do this with the ball on the mound. I don't see how one can apply this rule or comment to the OP.

(Further ... apparently neither does MLB!)

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Robmoz

There are several rules to consider when looking for support on this situation. Check out this link below and it will walk you through the the scenarios ...

Solution for Case Play 2013-03: Segura as R2 Steals First | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

Who are the folks that posted this on the UEFL website? I seriously doubt they are authoritative interpreters of the rules.

I go back to the scenario I posed earlier to Rich Ives: B1 could hit a clean double, and then B2 and B3 strike out. R2 erroneously thinks there are three outs, so he starts jogging to his dugout on the first base side. He is informed more than halfway to first by his base coach that there are only two outs. I can't imagine that the rules would allow him to hightail it to first base to avoid the out.

I still feel the Comment in 7.01 is to be interpreted as, "Once the pitcher assumes the rubber, a runner cannot return." I don't believe the rules makers intended it to apply at any time after the next pitch or play from when the runner first obtains the advanced base.

Besides, how would you score it? "Runner steals second and then returns to first base one pitch later due to...what??" And he was credited with a steal of second, and a caught stealing of second, during the same on-base period!