Safe on 2nd, goes back to 1st

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by SAWolf

Hi,

Here is the clip:
MIL: Top Plays | CHC@MIL: Segura's wacky baserunning does not end well - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

Questions:
1. Isn't that a balk from the pitcher? (he did not break and he threw to an unoccupied base?)
2. Two runners on one base the following runner is out when only when tagged however if the preceding runner stepped off the base thinking he was out and got tagged first would the following runner be able to safely claim second?
3. The runner going back to one was just crazy, right?

One large mess, coming right up...

1. F1 stepped towards 2nd, then disengaged. He was an infielder when he threw to 3rd.

2. Yes. The following runner is out when tagged only if the preceding runner is also on the base.

3. I don't know about crazy, but certainly ignorant of the rule.

[Rich Ives]

BTW: You can throw to an unoccupied if it's to make a play. As the runner was stealing a throw to 3B would be legal.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

BTW: You can throw to an unoccupied if it's to make a play. As the runner was stealing a throw to 3B would be legal.

As Rich stated, you can throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play. Many people don't read the second part of the rule.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

3. I don't know about crazy, but certainly ignorant of the rule.

Ignorant of which rule?

Rita

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Ignorant of which rule?

Rita

The rule that says he is entitled to 2nd base and is not out (correctly signaled by U2).

[Manny A]

Ok, now that I saw the play:

1. There is no balk on the pitcher. He did step toward second and did not throw, then disengaged and threw to third, all of which is legal.

2. There was no obstruction on F4. He backpedalled and got out of Segura's way at the last second.

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

And Rich, there was at least one pitch delivered to Braun after Segura stole second, for Ball Four that put Braun on first (I assume only one pitch; there could have been more fouled off before the walk that the video replay didn't show). So are you still advocating that Segura can legally return to first base?

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

[Robmoz]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, now that I saw the play:

1. There is no balk on the pitcher. He did step toward second and did not throw, then disengaged and threw to third, all of which is legal.

2. There was no obstruction on F4. He backpedalled and got out of Segura's way at the last second.

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

And Rich, there was at least one pitch delivered to Braun after Segura stole second, for Ball Four that put Braun on first (I assume only one pitch; there could have been more fouled off before the walk that the video replay didn't show). So are you still advocating that Segura can legally return to first base?

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

R1 is not guilty of passing preceding runner R2 as simultaneous occupation is not passing.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

3. How is Braun not out at second as soon as Segura slides back into the bag? Isn't Braun physically past Segura?

To be out for passing you have to be ENTIRELY past the runner. Fully and completely. Until just after Braun is tagged, he was never fully and entirely past Segura's foot.

That said, look at 0:28 on the video. After Braun is tagged, Segura is OFF the base and tagged again.

For the life of me, I don't understand how this crew allowed this to happen.

I don't believe this was illegal. Describe the part of 7.01 to us that leads you to believe he can't return to first.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To be out for passing you have to be ENTIRELY past the runner. Fully and completely. Until just after Braun is tagged, he was never fully and entirely past Segura's foot.

It is impossible for both to be touching the base in this way and rule that one has passed the other.

7.01 comment - once the pitcher takes his position R2 has title to second base and can't return to first. He can't go from being an R2 to being an R1.

I don't consider J/R gospel in any way, but in this case I think they're right. Segura should be called out pretty quickly once he heads back to first base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

It is impossible for both to be touching the base in this way and rule that one has passed the other.

Yes ... but Segura is no longer touching the bag about a half second after Braun was tagged. Had Braun not been tagged, he would have been "past Segura" about a half second later.

7.01 comment - once the pitcher takes his position R2 has title to second base and can't return to first. He can't go from being an R2 to being an R1.

A quote that is not exactly a quote... and the part that is not exactly a quote is the part I would disagree with - you've inferred something and then included it in the quote.

[Robmoz]

There are several rules to consider when looking for support on this situation. Check out this link below and it will walk you through the the scenarios ...

Solution for Case Play 2013-03: Segura as R2 Steals First | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

and it also has a video clip ....

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | CHC@MIL: Segura's wacky baserunning does not end well - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Robmoz

There are several rules to consider when looking for support on this situation. Check out this link below and it will walk you through the the scenarios ...

Solution for Case Play 2013-03: Segura as R2 Steals First | Close Call Sports and the Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

Who are the folks that posted this on the UEFL website? I seriously doubt they are authoritative interpreters of the rules.

I go back to the scenario I posed earlier to Rich Ives: B1 could hit a clean double, and then B2 and B3 strike out. R2 erroneously thinks there are three outs, so he starts jogging to his dugout on the first base side. He is informed more than halfway to first by his base coach that there are only two outs. I can't imagine that the rules would allow him to hightail it to first base to avoid the out.

I still feel the Comment in 7.01 is to be interpreted as, "Once the pitcher assumes the rubber, a runner cannot return." I don't believe the rules makers intended it to apply at any time after the next pitch or play from when the runner first obtains the advanced base.

Besides, how would you score it? "Runner steals second and then returns to first base one pitch later due to...what??" And he was credited with a steal of second, and a caught stealing of second, during the same on-base period!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I still feel the Comment in 7.01 is to be interpreted as, "Once the pitcher assumes the rubber, a runner cannot return." I don't believe the rules makers intended it to apply at any time after the next pitch or play from when the runner first obtains the advanced base.

Fair enough ... and you're certainly not alone in reading it that way.

Others read it to mean WHILE the pitcher is on the rubber. I bet if you polled 100 umpires, you'd get between 40 and 60 on either side of this. The argument has been mulled before.

OTOH - you have this example, in a real game, with real MLB umpires, who ruled that he could, in fact, return to first. And the last time we hashed this out, it was the same thing... MLB umps, runner allowed to go back to first (that one was an overslide of 2nd, kind of similar play if you take Braun away). So ... given 2 actual plays, and no evidence of MLB coming out saying they screwed it up (either time) ... which way you wanna go?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair enough ... and you're certainly not alone in reading it that way.

Others read it to mean WHILE the pitcher is on the rubber. I bet if you polled 100 umpires, you'd get between 40 and 60 on either side of this. The argument has been mulled before.

OTOH - you have this example, in a real game, with real MLB umpires, who ruled that he could, in fact, return to first. And the last time we hashed this out, it was the same thing... MLB umps, runner allowed to go back to first (that one was an overslide of 2nd, kind of similar play if you take Braun away). So ... given 2 actual plays, and no evidence of MLB coming out saying they screwed it up (either time) ... which way you wanna go?

Not necessarily that way. Top level umpires aren't necessarily the best interpreters of the rules. And perhaps MLB didn't think it was worth digging deeper into. I read nothing into any of that.

[DG]

It was years ago, but I was BU in a game where R1 stole 2b with no throw, and for some reason got up, dusted himself off and trotted nonchalant back to 1b. There was no play on him. I think everyone was stunned, me included as I watched him trot back.

We left him at 1b for the next pitch.