Appeal or Out

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

I've been umpiring a long time and had something happen last night at the varsity level I have never experienced before.

I'm on the bases and a great partner behind the dish. Runners on first and second. Two outs. Ball hit to the gap. R1 scores easily. Throw coming to the plate is cut off and the batter is easily thrown out at third for the third out. From my look, runner at the plate should have easily scored before the final out was made.

The problem is that the R2 never touched the plate. After the third out was recorded at third, he touched the plate. The plate umpire ruled no run because the third out was recorded prior to him touching the plate. No arguments from offensive coach.

During our post game, we discussed whether or not this is an appeal play with a potential fourth out. But that usually happens when a force play is created by missing a base.

My question is was the plate umpire correct in not counting the run or should we have done something else?

It's an appeal. Any missed base is an appeal - force or otherwise. He was INcorrect.

He may have missed the memo but several years back FED eliminated the automatic-umpire-calls-it on the missed base plays. Now there has to be an appeal.

[MD Longhorn]

Run scores unless and until appealed. Partner missed it.

[Welpe]

Agreed, score the run as the base is considered acquired.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

That's kind of what I thought. And the appeal likely wouldn't have been timely as he touched the base before any appeal could have been made.

[BestUmp]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Agreed, score the run as the base is considered acquired.

Agree with your agreement!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

That's kind of what I thought. And the appeal likely wouldn't have been timely as he touched the base before any appeal could have been made.

Interesting case, which might not be as obvious as everyone seems to think. I'm assuming FED rules and that the order of events was as follows and in quick but clear succession:

1. R1 passes HP without touching, thereby acquiring the base subject to appeal.

2. BR put out at 3B for the 3rd out of the inning.

3. R1 returns to HP to rectify his base-running error and touches HP.

If that's what happened, then some umpires would NOT score the run. The rationale would be that, although R1 initially acquired the base prior to the 3rd out and so provisionally scored, he did so illegally and left himself open to appeal. When he returned to touch HP, his touch was legal but occurred after the 3rd out, when no run can score. That touch would thus negate both the possible appeal AND the run. This might have been the PU's reasoning in the OP.

Those who disagree with this interp have 2 unpleasant options if the defense appeals:

A) If they uphold the appeal despite the runner touching HP, then they are ruling that the runner cannot ever rectify his error. No rule support for that: 8.2.1D is a clear case of a runner touching HP and scoring after the ball becomes dead, and 8.2.1E and 8.2.2M specify the windows within which base-running errors must be fixed and appeals must be made. This play is within both windows.

B) If they deny the appeal and score the run, they're saying that the initial acquisition was good enough to score, even though it was not a legal touch of the base. But this seems to give it to the offense both ways: passing the base was good enough to score, but touching the base negates the appeal. No rule support for such a ruling.

I think that the reasoning, but not the rules, would be the same for OBR. Doesn't the (now somewhat outdated) J/R have a case like this?

[Welpe]

I thought of that, mbyron but the hangup I have with that interpretation is that I'm not sure what support you have for unscoring a run based upon a runner's action lacking a subsequent appeal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I thought of that, mbyron but the hangup I have with that interpretation is that I'm not sure what support you have for unscoring a run based upon a runner's action lacking a subsequent appeal.

"Unscoring" a run? Would you call it that on a play where the defense successfully appealed? Certainly action after the play can in general affect whether a run scores.

The rule support is 2-20-1: the inning ended with the 3rd out, and no run can score thereafter.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

"Unscoring" a run? Would you call it that on a play where the defense successfully appealed? Certainly action after the play can in general affect whether a run scores.

Which is why I qualified the statement the way I did.

The rule support is 2-20-1: the inning ended with the 3rd out, and no run can score thereafter.

I fail to see how that would have an effect on what the runner does after the fact. How does a runner touching the plate after the third out change his status from aquiring to the plate to not?

[Rich Ives]

In OBR a runner cannot correct a mistake if a following runner has scored.

7.10(b ) AR 1

Is there a similar rule in FED?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In OBR a runner cannot correct a mistake if a following runner has scored.

7.10(b ) AR 1

Is there a similar rule in FED?

Yes, but it's not relevant to the situation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I fail to see how that would have an effect on what the runner does after the fact. How does a runner touching the plate after the third out change his status from acquiring to the plate to not?

R1 passes HP without touching it. He's treated as acquiring it, even though he hasn't touched it, pending an appeal.

When he returns to touch it, the previous acquisition is negated, and the legal touch supersedes it.

Since that happens after the 3rd out in the OP, the run does not score.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

R1 passes HP without touching it. He's treated as acquiring it, even though he hasn't touched it, pending an appeal.

Correct.

When he returns to touch it, the previous acquisition is negated, and the legal touch supersedes it.

Since that happens after the 3rd out in the OP, the run does not score.

A runner cannot return to touch a missed base after the 3rd out. The subsequent touch of the plate is meaningless, and the miss can be successfully appealed.

FED 8.2.2.M is not applicable because the runner is correcting his miss before the 3rd out.

[RadioBlue]

9.1.1c -- it is possible to score a run after the 3rd out. To say that no runs can score after the 3rd out is not true.

[PeteBooth]

That's NOT what Welpe is saying.

You do not UNSCORE a run by subsequent actions of the runner.

In this OP R3 crossed the plate but did not touch it, therefore, for scoring purposes, he is deemed to have "touched it" and score a run for his team UNLESS appealed.

The fact that R3 came back to touch the plate is irrelevant and in a way R3 has "tipped" his hand that he didn't touch it so the defense would be wise and appeal it.

Pete Booth