How to correct?

[jicecone]

"Time", John can I speak to you please. "When a throw from the outfield goes into dead ball territory the award is two bases from the time of throw. The batter-runner had acheived first base and therfore, should be awarded third."

Then give your partner the oppurtunity to make the correct award.

Now being a rookie, I can understand the reluctance in wanting to correct your partner however it is both of your responsibility to get the awards correct.

Now if your partner refuses because he has already made up his version of the correct rule, then you are put into a bind especially being a rookie. I would probably insist on the correct ruling being made and do everything possible to make sure my partner changes his ruling. I am going to leave it at that for now because there is a whole other scenario that can be discussed if your partner refuses to make the correct ruling.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

"Time", John can I speak to you please. "When a throw from the outfield goes into dead ball territory the award is two bases from the time of throw. The batter-runner had acheived first base and therfore, should be awarded third."

Then give your partner the oppurtunity to make the correct award.

Now being a rookie, I can understand the reluctance in wanting to correct your partner however it is both of your responsibility to get the awards correct.

Now if your partner refuses because he has already made up his version of the correct rule, then you are put into a bind especially being a rookie. I would probably insist on the correct ruling being made and do everything possible to make sure my partner changes his ruling. I am going to leave it at that for now because there is a whole other scenario that can be discussed if your partner refuses to make the correct ruling.

I believe your responsibility as PU, once you know the mistake is a rules mistake, and not a judgement mistake ("Coach, I don't think she was at first base yet when the ball was released") - is to discuss the rule with partner and let him make the call. If he insists his made-up rule is right, it's his call. Coach is more than able to protest the rules misapplication at that point. Not more you can do. Neither umpire trumps the other (put yourself in the other position ... say you made the RIGHT call as BU, but PU comes out to tell you it's 1+1 or somesuch ... it is YOUR decision what to do with PU's information).

[ozzy6900]

First of all, if you partner never called to you for help, you have no business being near him. The call is his and until he calls you, you should go back to your resting place or position. Sorry to say, but if he chooses to hang himself with a "made up rule" you are not there to be a part of it

If you partner calls you out to help him, you then give him what you have and if you feel he is applying a rule incorrectly, do your best to correct him (quietly). If your partner accepts your help and chooses to correct himself, let him handle it. If your partner refuses your input, step back and let him handle it.

Nothing good can come from you "sticking your nose" into the call if you are not asked for help. Further more, if the coach comes to you, just direct him back to your partner - it is not your call, it's your partner's call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

First of all, if you partner never called to you for help, you have no business being near him. The call is his and until he calls you, you should go back to your resting place or position. Sorry to say, but if he chooses to hang himself with a "made up rule" you are not there to be a part of it

If you partner calls you out to help him, you then give him what you have and if you feel he is applying a rule incorrectly, do your best to correct him (quietly). If your partner accepts your help and chooses to correct himself, let him handle it. If your partner refuses your input, step back and let him handle it.

Nothing good can come from you "sticking your nose" into the call if you are not asked for help. Further more, if the coach comes to you, just direct him back to your partner - it is not your call, it's your partner's call.

For judgement calls, I agree 100%. And as much as I respect what you say here 99.9% of the time - for rules misapplications I disagree with you 100%. Both the book and every clinic I've been to where this comes up tell you that it is the responsibility of BOTH umpires to ensure that the rules are applied correctly, and that protestable situations be avoided.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

For judgement calls, I agree 100%. And as much as I respect what you say here 99.9% of the time - for rules misapplications I disagree with you 100%. Both the book and every clinic I've been to where this comes up tell you that it is the responsibility of BOTH umpires to ensure that the rules are applied correctly, and that protestable situations be avoided.

The coach has the right to protest the rule if he feels it is incorrect. That is when I will come to you and correct you and then insist you fix your mistake. Until that time, I will be far away from you. It is your job to com to our game with proper knowledge of the rules - if you can't do your job, why do you want me to intercede? I may as well take the game & a half fee and do the game myself!

Just saying!

[mbyron]

To the OP: this thread introduces you to something of a generational conflict in umpiring, between the "old school" view that you should do your job and let your partner do his, and the "new school" view that the crew should work together and do whatever it takes to get the call right.

In HS baseball, too often umpires (and here I do NOT mean Ozzy) adopt the "old school" approach in order to insulate themselves from criticism or improvement. In my state, the new school is pretty firmly entrenched, and to move up and get tournament assignments umpires have to embrace it.

[SE Minnestoa Re]

I've been umpiring for over 30 years so I must be an "old guy". However, I believe it is my job as an umpire to get the call right when it is said and done. Sometimes toes may be stepped on but generally not. On this play, if I had knowledge that the runner was past first base we would not be continuing until we got him set on the correct base. If I did not have knowledge but the parter said he was passed the base, we would not start until he was on 3rd.

[jicecone]

I agree with everyone here. If my partner didn't know this basic award and did not want to change his call, he would be learning it real fast during the game. If he was embarassed because of statements made to the coach or took it personnaly then sometimes you just have to learn things the hard way. I would go out of my way to get him to understand how the final outcome will be though and let him make the call.

Some may say this is the radical approach which is why I held off in my original response. But, in the end even the old guys would probably take this same approach.

[Dave Reed]

The coach has the right to protest the rule if he feels it is incorrect.

I used to believe that-- i.e. the proper procedure is to let an incorrect interpretation go unless a coaches protests. I've come to see it differently now that I've watched many games as an interested spectator while my son went from LL up into college ball. It gives a different perspective.

I now realize that for many reasons coaches are usually not in a position to protest. There may be travel limitations or tight schedules that don't easily permit replaying part of a game. Most teams have a pitching rotation which would be upset by replaying, and professional courtesy requires a coach to consider his opponent's situation as well. It seems that the higher the level of ball, the less likely that a coach can permit himself the luxury of protesting. High school ball seems to me to be in the toughest spot-- there's a wide dispersion in umpire competence, yet lots of impediments to the protest mechanism.

I've come to the personal conclusion that relying on protests to correct umpire error is wrong. It may be convenient and less stressful to the (usually) 2 man crew, but it is highly inconvenient to pretty much all other stakeholders at the game. If an umpire believes that a rules interpretation is incorrect, he has an obligation to the game participants to discuss it with his partner.

My opinion-- and yes, it can cause some friction!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The coach has the right to protest the rule if he feels it is incorrect. That is when I will come to you and correct you and then insist you fix your mistake. Until that time, I will be far away from you. It is your job to com to our game with proper knowledge of the rules - if you can't do your job, why do you want me to intercede? I may as well take the game & a half fee and do the game myself!

Just saying!

I understand your approach, and it may be true for some that if they can't do their job they don't want you interceding (although it's not true for me... if I somehow botch a rule, I want to know it and fix it right then). But I assure that (at least in my area and according to all the clinicians I've had that have addressed this), my ASSIGNOR and my ASSOCIATION wants you interceding if I or another umpire has botched one.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Nothing good can come from you "sticking your nose" into the call if you are not asked for help. Further more, if the coach comes to you, just direct him back to your partner - it is not your call, it's your partner's call.

Your advice is good, except I can see a coach coming to the PU asking if the lead runner got 2 bases, then shouldnt the BR?

Does the BU award the bases to both runners? If so, then the PU should stay out of it unless asked by partner. But if each umpire is watching a different runner, and each awarding bases, then I Could see the scenario of the PU getting involved....

[Rich]

This is the plate umpire's ball. Why isn't he killing the ball and awarding bases anyway? I know I'm noting the location of the runners at the TOT.

I wouldn't let this one go. No way. I'd go to my partner and we'd talk.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by GROUPthink

This is the plate umpire's ball. Why isn't he killing the ball and awarding bases anyway? I know I'm noting the location of the runners at the TOT.

I wouldn't let this one go. No way. I'd go to my partner and we'd talk.

My thought exactly. In my experience, the umpire that kills the ball makes the awards. Plus, as PU and UIC, I'm overriding my BU if he makes an incorrect award.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by yawetag

My thought exactly. In my experience, the umpire that kills the ball makes the awards. Plus, as PU and UIC, I'm overriding my BU if he makes an incorrect award.

Same here, I've always made all of the awards when I've killed the play.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by yawetag

My thought exactly. In my experience, the umpire that kills the ball makes the awards. Plus, as PU and UIC, I'm overriding my BU if he makes an incorrect award.

That's not a duty of a PU/game UIC. You don't get veto power on base awards.

However, IMO, it is your award to make in the first place.