Bat Rolling

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I realize that the bat standards for baseball and softball are not the same, but here is the new terminology for the bat rule in softball:

That's actually old terminology that's been in rule book awhile. The "editorial change" is that it was moved from one section of the rule book to another.

Kyle, where are you getting your info on ABI? As I understand the ABI process, it involves rolling a bat only to a degree that simulates the stress that a bat typically sees with normal use. What is being measured is how "hot" a bat might get under normal circumstances, not how much stress it takes to make the bat fail. The intent is to determine if a bat's performance will exceed the BBCOR standard after a given period of normal game usage.

This is to prevent manufacturers from producing bats that perform at the cusp of the standard right out of the wrapper, with the knowledge that minimal use will make the bat hot enough to exceed the standard. To get BBCOR certification, the bat must perform below the standard after any break-in period.

All the ABI testing does is allow the broken-in bats to be tested after a few passes through the roller, as opposed to having to perform hundreds of bat/ball impacts to get to the same point.

[Mrumpiresir]

How about teaching an 11 year old how to hit, (bat speed through the zone and making solid contact) and not worrying about altering a bat. Good batters hit line drives, with wood bats or metal bats, instead of fly balls, pop ups or ground balls. Sheesh!!

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by kylejt

One more thing. Some companies dumbed down their BESR bats to BBCOR by inserting a metal ring, to truss up the insides. Rolling those will probably eff them up, and not produce the desired results.

Again, I don't know if rolled bats are considered altered, or not. I've felt rolled bats before, and you can feel the facets, ever so slight, but they're there.

Me, I'm worried about the end caps being removed. That either means a shaved bat, or one that the ring has been removed. Now that's an altered bat.

Seriously?

I've felt and looked at bats I know are rolled and shaved, and I couldn't tell the difference from one to the other. They can take those end caps off, and you cannot tell if they've been off or not.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

. Personally, this sounds like a bad idea waiting for something awful to happen all in the name of the long ball. Thoughts?

So, how long did it take you to advise said cheater (oka...coach) that you are removing your son from the team and want all monies paid to this point refunded?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by asdf

So, how long did it take you to advise said cheater (oka...coach) that you are removing your son from the team and want all monies paid to this point refunded?

While I don't like the notion of rolling a bat, it isn't cheating as long as it doesn't flatten the bat.

There are a number of companies out there which sell bats that are 'pre hit'. In other words, you pay them to hit a few hundred baseballs in order to stress the resin in your composite bat. The bat becomes livelier while still conforming to BBCOR standards. A new, rolled bat is simply much deader and players/coaches know it. They have found a way to speed up the process of making the bat ready to go. It also shortens the life of the bat but that is hardly a concern to most. It still makes me shake me head to see a kid open his bag and pull out almost a $1,000 worth of bats. My son will break in his bats the old fashioned way. My arm will be plenty sore from throwing his batting practice but its the price I pay for wanting him to be ethical and talented.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Steven Tyler]

Some bats are hotter out of the wrapper, and some take a lot to break in. Rolling a bat doesn't really weaken the structure of a bat. I've seen some of the composite carbon fiber bats break after about 50 swings. They should come with a one year warranty depending on who and where you obtained the bat from.

It's always just the luck of the draw.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Some bats are hotter out of the wrapper, and some take a lot to break in. Rolling a bat doesn't really weaken the structure of a bat. I've seen some of the composite carbon fiber bats break after about 50 swings. They should come with a one year warranty depending on who and where you obtained the bat from.

It's always just the luck of the draw.

Happy Thanksgiving, Steven.

I checked a few manufacturer sites and all state that bat rolling will void the warranty. This seems to be a bigger issue in softball, Miken and Worth both state that it weakens the bat so the warranty is void. As I said in my OP, I have never encountered this issue in baseball until the training facility near us offered the service. It appears to be just another way to gain an advantage without doing the work.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Kyle, where are you getting your info on ABI? As I understand the ABI process, it involves rolling a bat only to a degree that simulates the stress that a bat typically sees with normal use.

web1.ncaa.org/web_files/rules/baseball/bats/NCAAABIProcedure.pdf

Yeah, you're not going to be able to feel a shaved bat, but I've felt a few rolled ones. They're rippley. It's slight, to be sure.

As far as "weakening" them, I guess it's how you want to define that term. Softening up the bat will make it perform better, to a certain extent. Too soft, and it goes dead. I've heard the term "ripe" tossed around behind the backstop, after five straight , into the wind, dingers with the same bat.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by kylejt

web1.ncaa.org/web_files/rules/baseball/bats/NCAAABIProcedure.pdf

The first two sentences of that document reinforce what I posted above:

"This accelerated break-in procedure is meant to demonstrate how a composite bat will perform during its potential useful life in the field. This test procedure may be used...to quantify the effect that bat usage has on performance..."

There's a huge difference between performing ABI under controlled laboratory conditions and what the average Joe might do to doctor his kid's bat down in the basement. One uses controlled conditions to simulate typical, normal bat usage and ensure that the bat still performs below the standard. The other is "anything goes" and it's goal is to produce the hottest bat possible, one whose performance can exceed the standard, creating a competetive imbalance or even a safety issue.

[gpdeppert]

This is from a 2011 NFHS Points of Emphasis memo:

https://nfhs-baseball.arbitersports....%20Release.pdf

Top of page 2. Seems pretty clear to me.

The only trick is how to PROVE a bat has been altered by rolling.

CSI anyone?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by gpdeppert

The only trick is how to PROVE a bat has been altered by rolling.

Integrity -- What one does when nobody is looking.

[gpdeppert]

Originally Posted by asdf

Integrity -- What one does when nobody is looking.

Agreed. It is one of the cornerstones of being an official.

Now if players and coaches can just get on board.

My concern is that a coach infers that an opponent's bat has been altered and there is no way to confirm that. Major hassle with no solution.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Originally Posted by gpdeppert

This is from a 2011 NFHS Points of Emphasis memo:

https://nfhs-baseball.arbitersports....%20Release.pdf

Top of page 2. Seems pretty clear to me.

The only trick is how to PROVE a bat has been altered by rolling.

CSI anyone?

Not perfect, but you can do the "paper test". Use a sheet of notebook paper and wrap it around the barrel of the bat. Slide it up and down while slowly turning the bat. You can feel the smallest of ripples. All bats will have some ripple or minor dents that can be felt using the method, but a rolled bats ripples will be uniform.

YMMV

Joel

[MikeStrybel]

We are no longer charged with checking bats and hats in Illinois. If your state requires the pregame check, that may be the place to find it. Around here, they now put the onus on the HC and his staff. He needs only to confirm at the plate meeting that his players are properly and safely equipped. Given that few schools around here supply bats and helmets (almost all are personal), a coach can simply play ignorant and agree that as far as he knows all the gear is compliant. He is not held resposnsible for illegal gear, we are supposed to treat the infraction as the player's responsibility even though the coach is required to check them.

I didn't like being the equipment police before but this new policy just seems to invite new problems.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue

Not perfect, but you can do the "paper test". Use a sheet of notebook paper and wrap it around the barrel of the bat. Slide it up and down while slowly turning the bat. You can feel the smallest of ripples. All bats will have some ripple or minor dents that can be felt using the method, but a rolled bats ripples will be uniform.

YMMV

Joel

Really?

I was recently out in Phoenix for the World Championships/Senior Softball, and I was at the Combat distributor's trailer. He said there is really no true way to see if a bat has been rolled. They can check for machining when the bat is open, or the end cap is off. There is really no way to determine how many hits the bat actually has on it.

He did add that their bats are very hot out of the wrapper as they're working to get a slice of the Mikan and Worth business. The factory "hottens" the bats so to speak.

So go figure.