WP on ball four, does run count?

[Larry1953]

I finally found my copy of Nemec's book and found this interesting OP. Bases loaded, 2 outs with 3-1 count, tie game in the bottom of the 11th. Ball four is a wild pitch and R3 comes home with the apparent winning run. The B/R joins in the celebration at the plate instead of going to first. VM comes out to discuss with PU that B/R is obligated to touch first. PU (Votagglio) says the WP took precedence over the walk and eliminated the B/R's need to go to first. Nemec says this OP is still uncovered by the rules (1994). Rule 7.08 says the B/R must touch first before the other runners are forced to advance but that wording doesn't really seem to address the issue. Is there an appeal at 1B that might constitute the B/R making the third out before he reaches first that would negate the run? Has the umpire manual been revised in the meantime? Thanks.

[briancurtin]

Why would a wild pitch take precedence over anything? Wild pitch is an official scorer thing - it has nothing to do with the rules of the game, although they probably talk about it in section 10.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

Why would a wild pitch take precedence over anything? Wild pitch is an official scorer thing - it has nothing to do with the rules of the game, although they probably talk about it in section 10.

Sorry, I meant to type 6.08. Nemec commented that PU was "winging it" but that there was not a provision in the rulebook for how the VT would retire the B/R for failure to comply with 6.08(a).

[bob jenkins]

The umpire directs the batter-runner to first, and if he refuses declares him out.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The umpire directs the batter-runner to first, and if he refuses declares him out.

That makes sense, but what is the mechanic to direct the batter to first other than saying "Ball Four"? And what constitutes refusal? Usually pitchers go directly to first on a walk before putting a warm-up jacket on. Would leaving the dirt circle around the plate while walking to the dugout constitute refusal like on a D3K?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The umpire directs the batter-runner to first, and if he refuses declares him out.

Are you encouraging him?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

I finally found my copy of Nemec's book and found this interesting OP.

If you found it to be interesting, I'm sure the rest of us will as well. Thank you for being so considerate and thinking of us.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

If you found it to be interesting, I'm sure the rest of us will as well. Thank you for being so considerate and thinking of us.

It is at least as interesting as spending 3 or 4 pages on what is the best shade of gray for an ump's pants, IMHO. But I guess you real umpires have different priorities. From the looks of the way the game is being ump'ed at the MLB level, it certainly shows. But they sure look cute in their blue polos and charcoal gray pants and twin ball sacks. Carry on....

[SAump]

Game over.

4.09a states once a run has legally scored, it cannot be erased, no matter how hard one tries.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SAump

Game over.

4.09a states once a run has legally scored, it cannot be erased, no matter how hard one tries.

VM protests game (like Nemec says he should have).

ETA: there are lots of ways "legal runs" can get erased on appeal.
ETA: 4.09(b)...the umpire shall not declare the game over until the runner has touched home and the B/R has touched first [it the situation of a game ending on a bases loaded walk or HBP].

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

That makes sense, but what is the mechanic to direct the batter to first other than saying "Ball Four"? And what constitutes refusal? ?

1) You tell him he needs to go touch first.

2) He doesn't.

Your act is getting really old.

I have Nemcec's book - interesting - not a valid source interpretations.

The Sporting News' book used to be considered the key source as it was writtten by Billy Evans - an MLB umpire.. Still has historical value on interpretations.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

It is at least as interesting as spending 3 or 4 pages on what is the best shade of gray for an ump's pants, IMHO. But I guess you real umpires have different priorities. From the looks of the way the game is being ump'ed at the MLB level, it certainly shows. But they sure look cute in their blue polos and charcoal gray pants and twin ball sacks. Carry on....

I assume that's sarcasm. If so, it is certainly misdirected. You continue to brighten this forum and enlighten posters with such amazing posts and supportive opinon by such world recognized experts as David Nemec. I've never understood why MLB hasn't hired him as a rules interpreter and consultant.

Good work.

[SAump]

Remember the ball 4, R2 overruns 3rd base and is tagged out before R3 scores case play? Ruling run scores, out ends the inning.

Same ruling I have in this play, run scores, out at first on appeal. But that would not erase the winning run.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Larry1953

VM protests game (like Nemec says he should have).

ETA: there are lots of ways "legal runs" can get erased on appeal.
ETA: 4.09(b)...the umpire shall not declare the game over until the runner has touched home and the B/R has touched first [it the situation of a game ending on a bases loaded walk or HBP].

Recently, similar play in state playoff game. Protest on B/R's actions was not allowed to erase winning run. Perhaps someone can provide newspaper clipping.

[Larry1953]

Originally Posted by SAump

Remember the ball 4, R2 overruns 3rd base and is tagged out before R3 scores case play? Ruling run scores, out ends the inning.

Same ruling I have in this play, run scores, out at first on appeal. But that would not erase the winning run.

I also remember a rule that says a run cannot score if the third out is made by retiring the B/R before he touches first.