Count the bucket? Dead Ball? Act like you didn't see it?

[fletch_irwin_m]

This play has caused a SERIOUS ruckus in our association. What are your thoughts?

District Play-Offs

A2 flashes to the High/Mid Post to receive a pass from A1. B2 fouls (push) A2 as the ball arrives. Ball then bounces off A2's arm/shoulder, sails up and in the basket.
C calls foul, T signals ball went in the basket, L comes out and says "Let's discuss this" Before telling you what they decided, here are the arguments.
1. No basket, not a legitimate attempt at basket.
2. No basket. Once foul was committed, not in act of shooting, ball becomes dead.
3. Count the basket. The ball went in. By disallowing the basket we are interjecting our interpretation of what is and isn't a shot.
4. Count the basket. Since there is no consensus, it is easier to "sell"
5. If the foul occured PRIOR to the ball arriving, No Basket, ball is dead. If foul occured AFTER the ball arrived, count the basket because the ball is in the air. No different then OOB etc.

[Dan_ref]

No brainer. #2

[Blackhawk357]

#1 or #2, just don't count the basket ~ the ball is dead.

[oatmealqueen]

#1 or #2

[theshortbaldref]

If the foul was before the pass striking A2, I'd say dead ball. I think you can find some sort of explanation in the NFHSA Case book Pg. 35, 5.2.1 Sit. D Which says "The fact it was not a tap or a try for a goal does not affect the scoring of two points" As for it being a pass, try P.34, 5.1.1 which says the two points are counted if not complicated by a foul occuring while the ball is in flight, which seems to be what you're speaking of. Good questions though. How did it get handled???

[RecRef]

#2 and serious thought to an intentional foul call.

[stripes]

Originally posted by RecRef
#2 and serious thought to an intentional foul call.

Huh?

Why even consider an intentional here?

[Paul LeBoutillier]

Ball is dead once the foul occurs since there was no try or tap for goal.

[fletch_irwin_m]

Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand

--Neil Peart
Nice RUSH reference

[stripes]

Thank you.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by stripes

Huh?

Why even consider an intentional here?

Have to see it but if the push looks to be initiated to move A2 away so B2 can get the ball I would give thought to intentional.

RecRef,
First there is nothing in the original post that indicates this is anything but a pushing foul in the post while the pass is on it's way to A2. This would be the same if the pass was to the block and B2 was pushing A2 as he received the pass on the block.

This play is only a common foul that occurs in the normal action of the game. No way an intentional foul even crosses my mind.

[fletch_irwin_m]

The three officials huddled. Prior to this the T signaled for a good basket, and that is what the crowd,teams and coaches thought.
After discussing the situation the officials decided NOT to allow the basket, as the reasoned the arrival of the ball and the foul occured simultaneously. Therefore, once blow, ball became dead. HOWEVER, the thought was that if the ball arrived and was deflected PRIOR to the foul occuring, the basket should be counted.
I am not still not sure on this. I would lean to counting the basket unless it was 100% clear (which in this case it wasn't) that the foul occured prior to the ball being deflected.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by fletch_irwin_m
The three officials huddled. Prior to this the T signaled for a good basket, and that is what the crowd,teams and coaches thought.
After discussing the situation the officials decided NOT to allow the basket, as the reasoned the arrival of the ball and the foul occured simultaneously. Therefore, once blow, ball became dead. HOWEVER, the thought was that if the ball arrived and was deflected PRIOR to the foul occuring, the basket should be counted.
I am not still not sure on this. I would lean to counting the basket unless it was 100% clear (which in this case it wasn't) that the foul occured prior to the ball being deflected.

You cannot count the basket. A deflection off the shoulder is most definitely NOT a try so the ball was dead as soon as the foul was called. This is not the same as a player who throws an apparent pass from behind the 3-pt line that goes in (this year's rule book makes it so that the official does not have to decide if it was a try and allows for 3 points). In this case, we have an obvious "non-try" so the ball is dead on the whistle.

Z

[Lotto]

Here's the relevant definition:

NCAA Rule 4-66. Try for Field Goal/Act of Shooting
Art. 1. A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing or tapping the ball into his or her basket.

A2's accidental deflection of the ball is clearly not a try. Therefore, the ball is dead immediately when the foul occurs (whether or not the ball was deflected first) and no goal should be scored.

The following may be of some help as well:

A.R. 38. A1 becomes confused and shoots the ball at the wrong basket. A1 is fouled while trying to shoot and the ball goes in the basket. Is this a goal? If A1 missed, should A1 be granted two free throws for the foul by the Team B player? RULING: No goal. The ball became dead when the foul occurred. When a player shoots at the opponent?s basket, it is not a try. When Team A is in the bonus when the Team B player fouls A1, A1 shall be awarded a one-and-one. When Team A is not in the bonus, the ball shall be awarded to Team A at the designated spot.