Who's Got First?

Garth Vader · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 09, 2011, 10:27pm

While doing a 18 year old game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

yawetag · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 09, 2011, 10:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

You can look, but don't expect an answer unless he's expecting you to look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Absolutely not.

ODJ · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 09, 2011, 11:17pm

Had a similar play:

Bad throw to first. F3 tries to touch the bag, misses. Then tries a swipe tag, misses. "Safe"

DC wants me to get help, he did touch the bag.

"Then why did he try a swipe?"

"He wanted to be sure."

Uh-huh. Play on.

Coach knew why you called safe. Play on.

johnnyg08 · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 09, 2011, 11:32pm

I agree. Coach knew why you called safe, that's why he didn't come out begging.

nwsquid · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 09:55am

I'd be OK going to my partner for help, but don't expect him to come running in to step on your toes. Huddle up and see if he had a definitive look at it.

End of the day it's your call, but angles are sometimes going to get whacky in 2-man.

I am surprised the coach didn't request you get help from your partner.

johnnyg08 · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 10:19am

I've had plays like this before. I've been on BU, we've pregamed it...I owned my call...some coaches around here think we have to get help on everything, knowing nothign about our mechanics...there's no way my partner would've seen it.

I had the best look I could get, my partner was watching something else...maybe a touch of 3B, or something else...I took the heat, was in the best position possible and stuck w/ my call w/o asking for help. Right or wrong we do the best we can when working two-man.

Garth Vader · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 10:22am

i would think that getting the call right would be the most important thing

Simply The Best · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

i would think that getting the call right would be the most important thing

It is but four posters before you sure don't think so.

Check your egos at the door and get the call right.

johnnyg08 · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 10:53am

Right, but mechanically when I know that my partner wasn't even looking, I'm not going to ask him just to appease somebody who's never opened a mechanics manual.

kylejt · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 11:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

i would think that getting the call right would be the most important thing

Negative.

Getting the procedure right is the most important thing.

There's only two guys on the planet I work with that I'd go to first on a call like this. And that would only be in the 60' field, if I were in C, behind the shortstop. Only two guys that I'd trust had my back.

Now if a coach came out to ask me to get help(nicely, of course), and I had doubt (and a good partner), I'd entertain it. Other than that, he's still safe.

Rich · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 11:13am

I like how those with an agenda always lean on the ego canard.

Truth is, umpires have specific responsibilities on plays. Since the base umpire is in B, that means that there are runners (I'm guessing) on first or first/third.

If there's R1/R3, the PU has to watch the touch of the plate. Period. Even if the umpire tried to sneak a peek, he's behind the plate and probably 95-100 feet away with a terrible look.

If there's R1, how is the crew handling R1 going to third? If it was agreed that the PU was covering third on this play, he's already heading up the line and the BU has to move to get in place to get this call. If the BU is covering third, then the PU might be able to get up the line to get a decent look.

But instead of wringing our hands and talking about "getting help," how about I ask the OP what he did to move into position to make this call. Did he move aggressively a few steps towards the 45 foot line between the plate and first in order to get the best possible angle on the play, keeping in mind there could be a subsequent play, depending on coverages?

I guarantee this: I will never ask a partner when I'm certain I have the best possible look at a play and I know my partner doesn't have a better look. And that means that me asking for help happens about every 10 years. I've worked with many base umpires who stand still, get straight-lined, and ask multiple times in a GAME. With umpires like this, we're dealing with a symptom here, not the disease.

Garth Vader · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 11:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylejt

Negative.

Getting the procedure right is the most important thing.

Quote:

There's only two guys on the planet I work with that I'd go to first on a call like this. And that would only be in the 60' field, if I were in C, behind the shortstop. Only two guys that I'd trust had my back.

Now if a coach came out to ask me to get help(nicely, of course), and I had doubt (and a good partner), I'd entertain it. Other than that, he's still safe.

Garth Vader · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 11:28am

the plate umpire saw that the base umpire missed the call, that is missed the first swipe that got the bag. he should have informed me and we should have gotten the call right.

bob jenkins · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 01:11pm

(Many posts removed).

I'll give the new guy the benefit of the doubt, but actions like those deleted stop here.

Simply The Best · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 10, 2011, 01:13pm

All in all, this thread boils down to simple classification of umpires.

1) Scared to death to be seen as human (prone to error), wearing your ego emblazoned on your chest in luminance paint and considering yourself bigger than the game...or

2) Personally secure enough to be able to admit error, especially under difficult circumstances, do the right thing and get the call correct.

Considering #2, this correction can so easily be accomplished without anyone being "sacrificed"

, Numero Uno is a sad joke on its beholder.

Hint: No one gives a damn about your ego...except yourself.