Who's Got First?

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Garth, I know I am a little late in this however, Bob is exactly right here, "Getting the call right is important. Getting it right the right way is also important -- and not every call can be "got right", especially in 2-person."

From your post, you had determined the runner was safe and declared it. If you had doubt, then ask your partner before you declare safe or out, or get in a better position to know for yourself. That is all everyone is saying here.

off point because I asked if my partner should have come out and told me i missed it. He should have. which is not the point- maybe I should have asked "How should my partner informed me I missed the call?" i thought it was a given to do the right thing and get the call right. Almost everyone agrees i am wrong. I'm stunned. Stunned to see the replies.

Your credibility is automatically on the line everytime you make a decision and then question it, by asking for help. The path you choose and the extent you go to, to "get the call rght" is entirely up to you. We are just passing on the experience that has worked best for us.

my credibility and my integrity as an ump is ZEROif i choose to let calls made wrong stay wrong. if i am PU, i'm taliking to BU.

i would think that by asking for help i would be showing that I am all about getting it right. sheesh.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

I would think that by asking for help i would be showing that I am all about getting it right. sheesh.

You can think that way if you want but just remember, every time you change your call the the previously happy coach will now be the unhappy one.

Officiate as you see fit and have a good season.

[bob jenkins]

From NCAA Appendix E "Getting the Call Right"

No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

The umpire making the call must be the one to seek asistance of a partner.

In the situations below, a partner who is 100 percetn certain he has addiitonal information should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information (7 items listed, none of which is "pulled foot or swipe tag at first")

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

off point because I asked if my partner should have come out and told me i missed it. He should have. which is not the point- maybe I should have asked "How should my partner informed me I missed the call?" i thought it was a given to do the right thing and get the call right. Almost everyone agrees i am wrong. I'm stunned. Stunned to see the replies.

Then you're not reading any rule books, ever. See Bob's reply regarding the NCAA. And look at 9.02(c) in OBR while you're researching stuff.

my credibility and my integrity as an ump is ZERO if i choose to let calls made wrong stay wrong. if i am PU, i'm taliking to BU.

And if I'm the BU, you'll do that once. And we'll only work together that one game.

i would think that by asking for help i would be showing that I am all about getting it right. sheesh.

Okay, it's time you admit you're actually a coach, looking to stir things up.

[MrUmpire]

I find it interesting, "Garth", that you signed your OP "Gordon."

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

How do you prefer to be addressed?

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

And if I'm the BU, you'll do that once. And we'll only work together that one game.

ok by me as this thread goes on there are fewer and fewer that I would take an assignment.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

From NCAA Appendix E "Getting the Call Right"

No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it.

The umpire making the call must be the one to seek asistance of a partner.

In the situations below, a partner who is 100 percetn certain he has addiitonal information should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information (7 items listed, none of which is "pulled foot or swipe tag at first")

this is what i am referring to thanks for the update. just because there are only 7 the heart of the rule is clear. Bob, what are those seven?

[DG]

You guys can update me, because my CCA is 2009 model and in it PU goes up the 1b line with R1 only and on batted ball toward F3, U1 has BR at 1st as well as R1 at 2b and 3b if he chooses to advance past 2b.

I generally, in pregame say I will take runner on 1st into 3rd only if a batted ball leaves the infield.

I would not interject on my partners's call, but if he asks me, that is why I came up the line in 1st place so I would tell him and he can decide what to do with that info

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DG

You guys can update me, because my CCA is 2009 model and in it PU goes up the 1b line with R1 only and on batted ball toward F3, U1 has BR at 1st as well as R1 at 2b and 3b if he chooses to advance past 2b.

I generally, in pregame say I will take runner on 1st into 3rd only if a batted ball leaves the infield.

That's last year's mechanic. Now, PU has R1 (with R1 only) at third even if the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, unless there's a fair-foul issue in which case PU needs to stay near the line to rule on that so BU has the second play at thrid.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

this is what i am referring to thanks for the update. just because there are only 7 the heart of the rule is clear. Bob, what are those seven?

GarthV you can download a free copy of the NCAA rules:

NCAA Publications - 2011-2012 Baseball Rules (2 Year Publication)

There is this lead-in to Appendix E "Getting The Call Right" which says:

"The first requisite of an umpire is to ultimately get all decisions correct. Umpire pride is important, but never as important as getting the play right. It is the philosophy of the NCAA that umpires always seek to get the call
right. This may involve the reversal of a previously rendered decision. However, the correct decision—not the pride of any umpire—must prevail."

This is the ethics I teach, apparently you were taught, and on which any umpire should be taught.

To add emphasis, this creed of ethics is repeated in Section D;

"...contrary to past practice, umpires are not to “die with a call” in cases in which a) the calling umpire is not 100 percent certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information that could lead to a proper ruling. Both NCAA philosophy and umpire integrity – consistent with NCAA rules – dictate that calls are reversed in this situation."

The last paragraph of Appendix E states :

"Overall, umpires are urged to seek help on reversible plays in which they may have erred by not seeing a crucial element of a play."

These quotes above leave absolutely no interpretation by any official that places the game in front of his pride and ego except to "Get The Cal Right" regardless.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

While doing a 18 year old game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

1. Yes, for three good reasons.
A. You stated; "The pitcher from my angle may or may not have
tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would
have been looking to my partner for help)". So what changed your
mind? You didn't know. The follow on action should never have a
bearing on what you saw or didn't see. Would every trapped ball you
call be changed to a catch because the fielder holds it up and shows
it too you, course not. A batter doesn't swing, does his
action "suggest" it wasn't a strike?
B. Your partner told you, you missed it. Hindsight say's you should
asked.
C. It woulda looked sharp as heck, and you've nothing to lose, worst you
get is the same call, the best you get is an out. And you'll sleep much
better knowing you did everything in your power to GET IT RIGHT.

2. No. Your partner doesn't know why you called em safe, maybe you had a
bobble, maybe you thought the runner won the race? You later post
your partner should have interjected, again, what if you just flat missed
a call, you would expect your partner to stop all action and tell you what
he had? On what, every play? Only 95% of em, 50%, where do you draw
the line? How about a low strike, should the BU interject. Why not
just go with 3 umpire's per base, majority rules?

I like your get it right desire, but "you" gotta get em right not the consensus. How could you adjust your coverage on this play to see the whole picture, did ya relax thinking it was gonna be a gimme? Were you hedging towards 2B to much in anticipation of a play there?

Good luck and "get em right"..

[jkumpire]

Garth,

No offense intended if you work lots of baseball, but you need to understand something.

In higher levels of Baseball there is a concept called "own your own call", or "take care of your business". Players and coaches expect the umpire to make get the call right, and lots of people know who should be calling what.

In your case, you are saying you're not sure he got the bag. You did the right thing, you called him safe. F3 gave the play away and the manager was telling him that. I recently was in a ball park for a college game, with a 2 out play at the plate. Ball beats the runner to the plate, F2 made a terrible tag, but in the PU's view tagged him, and the PU rang up the runner. Right call was made.

After the play F2 went and tagged the runner again, after the runner touched the plate, and after PU made his call. HC and F2 had a long talk in between innings since he threw the PU under the bus for the second tag, when the umpire clearly called him out, and he was out.

In your case, your job is to make the call at 1B. You need to own this call. If you go to your partner, or if your partner comes out and overrules you (which is exactly how it will be interpreted by everyone in the park) then on every close play for the rest of the game you are going to get nothing but hassled, and if there is an argument, you will be asked to "appeal it to your partner, he had a better angle than you, etc". On every close play for the rest of that game you have made the PU your assistant base umpire.

Further, when you called safe did you use the basic signal mechanic saying, "He's safe, he's off the bag", and moving both your arms to one side in a waving motion, or did you just signal safe, as in he beat the ball to the base?
Using the mechanic to say that he missed the bag in your judgment explains to both dugouts what you saw, and you would not have heard a word from the defensive team's HC on the play. It sounds to me like like you had a big hesitation before you called safe in the first place, also leading me to think that F3 thought you made no call, so he was trying buy an out call from you.

Now, everyone of us on the board who has participated in this discussion has a desire to get every call right, nobody wants to miss any call ever, especially a call like this at 1B. If the PU is doing his job he has other things to worry about than checking for a foot touching the bag on this play. A good PU would have said to you, "in my judgment he did," (or words to that effect) as opposed to what he told you, because if he's doing his job, he won't have a perfect angle to see the play either. If he does have such an angle he's not doing his job.

What we are trying to tell you is:

1. That the call is yours to make.
2. You made it. That's what should happen on the play.
3. Trying to "get the call right" as you describe it with conferences and asking for help causes many more problems than it solves. and in this case all you have is the PU's guess substituting for your guess, not a good thing to have happen.
4. If you missed it, then find out why you missed it after the game and don't do it again.

And for my .02:

5. Never let a team's HC get into your head like this one did. If you are asking about a call 2 or 3 innings later either you know you missed it, or the HC who said that has gotten you thinking about you missing a call, almost guaranteeing that your mind is on the previous call, instead of getting the next call right, almost a guarantee you will miss another close call in the game.

In your judgment you got the call right. good call. If after the game you think you missed it, forget about it. the losing team did not lose the game because you might have missed the call.

[REFANDUMP]

I haven't chimed in on this conversation until now, but I've taken a great interest in it as I had a similar play two seasons ago and got into a real mess with it. Similar situation, defensive coach comes out and asks if the first baseman missed the bag or not. I was in B and didn't get the look at first that I should have so I had no problem checking with my partner. I asked my partner "Did the first baseman hit the base" and my partner says that he did so I rang up the out. Now the offensive coach comes to me and I explain that I didn't see the foot hit the base so I checked with my partner and he told me that the first baseman did hit the base and therefore we had an out. The coach objects stating that he my have hit the base on the second swipe, but in no way did he hit it on the first. I confirmed again with my partner, and he told me that he did get the base on the second swipe and not the first. Now I had to come back with another reversal and again ruled the runner safe. I now managed to piss off both coaches with one call (which is a rare accomplishment) and look like a complete idiot on the play.

I learned a valuable lesson on this occasion in that I'm now asking a partner only "what did you see" and not a specific question if I confer with them and also that going to your partner sometimes creates more problems than it solves. I like the earlier point about owning your own calls, and I think I'm going to look moreso at using that philosophy in the future.

[Garth Vader]

I'm getting tired of bein lectured by umpires who are trying to sell there laxness to being ethical and honest and hove a 1000 excuses why they should sellout and not GET THE CALL RIGHT. I have looked in every manual form HS to NCAA and others and the instruction is ok the same. Forget about anything else and get the call right.

Forget about anything else and get the call right. so what it gets down to is that you are above the game and anything that will make your life easy is what you are going to do. Fine. go ahead, shame on you, don't expect me to bow to your low standards though.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I haven't chimed in on this conversation until now, but I've taken a great interest in it as I had a similar play two seasons ago and got into a real mess with it. Similar situation, defensive coach comes out and asks if the first baseman missed the bag or not.

The sit is similar to me but not to the rest of the forum. Their arguments would be since the DC has asked about the call then a) Screw him it's not his place or b) Time to conference. There may be c, d, e and f but to me it makes no difference. Get the call right.

I was in B and didn't get the look at first that I should have so I had no problem checking with my partner. I asked my partner "Did the first baseman hit the base" and my partner says that he did so I rang up the out. Now the offensive coach comes to me and I explain that I didn't see the foot hit the base so I checked with my partner and he told me that the first baseman did hit the base and therefore we had an out. The coach objects stating that he my have hit the base on the second swipe, but in no way did he hit it on the first. I confirmed again with my partner, and he told me that he did get the base on the second swipe and not the first. Now I had to come back with another reversal and again ruled the runner safe. I now managed to piss off both coaches with one call (which is a rare accomplishment) and look like a complete idiot on the play.

Sorry for that but so what? Did your life immeasurably change? Did you grow donkey ears and bray at the moon? Did your wife refuse sex for the remainder of your life? Nothing of any consequence happened. Nothing at all. MOF, after giving the coaches their say, you are in a perfect position to toss.

"Coach, you came out and wanted me to get the call right. We did exactly what you wanted. That will be all."

I learned a valuable lesson on this occasion in that I'm now asking a partner only "what did you see" and not a specific question if I confer with them...

In a conference, you and your partner can go over the entirety of the call, taking your time to discuss all the particulars. Including, in this case, if or if not the swipe made contact and when the swipe made contact which will lead you to gettting the call right.

... and also that going to your partner sometimes creates more problems than it solves.

No, it creates a different problem one you are ethically bound to solve. Get the call right. That's what you're paid to do, isn't it or do they pay you to call them anyway that suits your fancy?

I like the earlier point about owning your own calls, and I think I'm going to look moreso at using that philosophy in the future.

I don't know what that means but it sounds like a cop-out at first read.