Who's Got First?

[Garth Vader]

While doing a 18 year old game the following play occurred. I was in the B position. Ground ball to the right side pitcher tries to field it but misses. First baseman field the ball and the pitcher is covering first but approaching from a bad angle. The pitcher from my angle may or may not have tagged the edge of the base facing second ( at this point I would have been looking to my partner for help) the pitcher than clearly tags the base a "second time" this time the runner is clearly safe. The pitchers action (tagging the base a second time) told me that he initially missed the base on his first attempt I signalled safe.

The defensive coach doesn't complain but I hear him call out to the first baseman "Next time don't tag the base twice". I got that sinking feeling that something is wrong. I waited a couple of innings and I asked my partner if he got the base the first time and he said that he did.

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

You can look, but don't expect an answer unless he's expecting you to look.

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Absolutely not.

[ODJ]

Had a similar play:

Bad throw to first. F3 tries to touch the bag, misses. Then tries a swipe tag, misses. "Safe"

DC wants me to get help, he did touch the bag.

"Then why did he try a swipe?"

"He wanted to be sure."

Uh-huh. Play on.

Coach knew why you called safe. Play on.

[johnnyg08]

I agree. Coach knew why you called safe, that's why he didn't come out begging.

[nwsquid]

I'd be OK going to my partner for help, but don't expect him to come running in to step on your toes. Huddle up and see if he had a definitive look at it.

End of the day it's your call, but angles are sometimes going to get whacky in 2-man.

I am surprised the coach didn't request you get help from your partner.

[johnnyg08]

I've had plays like this before. I've been on BU, we've pregamed it...I owned my call...some coaches around here think we have to get help on everything, knowing nothign about our mechanics...there's no way my partner would've seen it.

I had the best look I could get, my partner was watching something else...maybe a touch of 3B, or something else...I took the heat, was in the best position possible and stuck w/ my call w/o asking for help. Right or wrong we do the best we can when working two-man.

[Simply The Best]

All in all, this thread boils down to simple classification of umpires.

1) Scared to death to be seen as human (prone to error), wearing your ego emblazoned on your chest in luminance paint and considering yourself bigger than the game...or

2) Personally secure enough to be able to admit error, especially under difficult circumstances, do the right thing and get the call correct.

Considering #2, this correction can so easily be accomplished without anyone being "sacrificed" , Numero Uno is a sad joke on its beholder.

Hint: No one gives a damn about your ego...except yourself.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

All in all, this thread boils down to simple classification of umpires.

1) Scared to death to be seen as human (prone to error), wearing your ego emblazoned on your chest in luminance paint and considering yourself bigger than the game...or

2) Personally secure enough to be able to admit error, especially under difficult circumstances, do the right thing and get the call correct.

Considering #2, this correction can so easily be accomplished without anyone being "sacrificed" , Numero Uno is a sad joke on its beholder.

Hint: No one gives a damn about your ego...except yourself.

I want to see an honest reply to my post above and Bob's just two above this one. Don't get emotional, don't use the word ego -- just describe how the PU can *do his job* and still have a great look on a play at first he's not even responsible for.

I'm guessing I'll be waiting a long time for this, troll.

[dileonardoja]

My take from the OP is that the coach is an experienced baseball guy in that he realized his player made a mistake in trying to touch the bag again. As such, he knew he was a loser in an argument. It is similar to the catcher not holding on to a marginal pitch. He is not getting the call. An experienced coach knows that and tells his catcher to hang on the ball. An inexperienced coach asks the catcher, "where was it?"

This is a game of subtleties and when you've been around it for a while you know what they are.

For all those who say the most important thing is getting the call right what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed. If getting it right was the imperative we would confer after every call just to make sure the call was correct.

the goal should be to be consistent in all phases and expertly manage the game.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

For all those who say the most important thing is getting the call right

Do you?[quote] what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed.[Right is when a clear an obvious error has been made as per my OP

If getting it right was the imperative we would confer after every call just to make sure the call was correct.

Ridiculous and you should know it.

the goal should be to be consistent in all phases and expertly manage the game.

The only goal that matters is "GET IT RIGHT.

[MrUmpire]

Must be the three year reunion.

[BSUmp16]

There's more to it than "getting it right" on every individual call. Sometimes you just have to umpire. I don't have a problem with Garth's philosophy, just as long as I don't have to work with a partner that shares it.

[biggravy]

Garth, I'm confused why you come here asking the question in the OP, then 10 posts later you berate people for giving you an answer?

As described, I am not expecting my partner to have a good look at that play. He has other responsibilities. Even going to him opens a whole other can of worms. If he was on that play he just told me, and the opposing coach, that he was not watching the other runners and thus negating his area of responsibility. I have no problem getting the best look I can using two person mechanics, and then telling the coach that I will not go for help on that play. Just my two cents.

[Garth Vader]

I'm getting tired of bein lectured by umpires who are trying to sell there laxness to being ethical and honest and hove a 1000 excuses why they should sellout and not GET THE CALL RIGHT. I have looked in every manual form HS to NCAA and others and the instruction is ok the same. Forget about anything else and get the call right.

Forget about anything else and get the call right. so what it gets down to is that you are above the game and anything that will make your life easy is what you are going to do. Fine. go ahead, shame on you, don't expect me to bow to your low standards though.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

I'm getting tired of bein lectured by umpires who are trying to sell there laxness to being ethical and honest and hove a 1000 excuses why they should sellout and not GET THE CALL RIGHT. I have looked in every manual form HS to NCAA and others and the instruction is ok the same. Forget about anything else and get the call right.

Forget about anything else and get the call right. so what it gets down to is that you are above the game and anything that will make your life easy is what you are going to do. Fine. go ahead, shame on you, don't expect me to bow to your low standards though.

So go and get the call right, for God's sake, and stop blubbering! While your at it, try buying a book on positioning and get into the right place to make the call. From the B, you should be able to move into position and adjust as needed and don't even think of arguing that you were in the right place. 30 years of umpiring and 10 years of evaluating for my association tells me that you were not in the right place.