Who's Got First?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

the plate umpire saw that the base umpire missed the call, that is missed the first swipe that got the bag. he should have informed me and we should have gotten the call right.

It's definitely (imo) not PU's job to interject himself in this play.

If there was R1 only, PU would be heading to third (under new CCA mechanics, and those sometimes used in other levels). He'd likely not have a good view of the play.

If there was R3 as well, then PU is likely watching the tag at the plate.

If you asked him, he should give you what he had, but it's not likely to be much.

Getting the call right is important. Getting it right the right way is also important -- and not every call can be "got right", especially in 2-person.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

(Many posts removed).

I'll give the new guy the benefit of the doubt, but actions like those deleted stop here.

Start the clock.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

All in all, this thread boils down to simple classification of umpires.

1) Scared to death to be seen as human (prone to error), wearing your ego emblazoned on your chest in luminance paint and considering yourself bigger than the game...or

2) Personally secure enough to be able to admit error, especially under difficult circumstances, do the right thing and get the call correct.

Considering #2, this correction can so easily be accomplished without anyone being "sacrificed" , Numero Uno is a sad joke on its beholder.

Hint: No one gives a damn about your ego...except yourself.

I want to see an honest reply to my post above and Bob's just two above this one. Don't get emotional, don't use the word ego -- just describe how the PU can *do his job* and still have a great look on a play at first he's not even responsible for.

I'm guessing I'll be waiting a long time for this, troll.

[dileonardoja]

My take from the OP is that the coach is an experienced baseball guy in that he realized his player made a mistake in trying to touch the bag again. As such, he knew he was a loser in an argument. It is similar to the catcher not holding on to a marginal pitch. He is not getting the call. An experienced coach knows that and tells his catcher to hang on the ball. An inexperienced coach asks the catcher, "where was it?"

This is a game of subtleties and when you've been around it for a while you know what they are.

For all those who say the most important thing is getting the call right what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed. If getting it right was the imperative we would confer after every call just to make sure the call was correct.

the goal should be to be consistent in all phases and expertly manage the game.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

For all those who say the most important thing is getting the call right

Do you?[quote] what makes you sure it will be right even after it is changed.[Right is when a clear an obvious error has been made as per my OP

If getting it right was the imperative we would confer after every call just to make sure the call was correct.

Ridiculous and you should know it.

the goal should be to be consistent in all phases and expertly manage the game.

The only goal that matters is "GET IT RIGHT.

[MrUmpire]

Must be the three year reunion.

[BSUmp16]

There's more to it than "getting it right" on every individual call. Sometimes you just have to umpire. I don't have a problem with Garth's philosophy, just as long as I don't have to work with a partner that shares it.

[biggravy]

Garth, I'm confused why you come here asking the question in the OP, then 10 posts later you berate people for giving you an answer?

As described, I am not expecting my partner to have a good look at that play. He has other responsibilities. Even going to him opens a whole other can of worms. If he was on that play he just told me, and the opposing coach, that he was not watching the other runners and thus negating his area of responsibility. I have no problem getting the best look I can using two person mechanics, and then telling the coach that I will not go for help on that play. Just my two cents.

[Simply The Best]

There really needs to be a discussion about getting this call right when there has been an obvious, correctable error as in the case of the OP?

Really? Think about that.

Leaving this call unadjusted is not only the height of being unethical it is flat out cheating.

Pathetic beyond expression.

[Durham]

I agree we should work to get all called right, but unless I am mistaken, all codes say that I cannot change another umpires call and if I did my actions could be subject to protest and I would lose. The NCAA did give us a list of when the non calling umpires should step in and help without invite, but the OP isn't one of them.

The game has found away to survive this long as is, and has a process for this. The manager/HC comes out and argues the call. When that happens we have a choice and some umpires have a mechanic for this. I have worked with guys that will start down or others that remove their hat if they have something for me.

To be honest if I were the calling umpire and knew I missed a crucial element of this play, I would stop the manager/HC on his way out before he got to me and I would get my crew together. After that there isn't much that anyone could argue. I didn't give the illusion that I let the coach talk me into it, he never got close enough to talk to me. As far as the being out of position argument, that is not a conversation that a coach and I are going to have, but he is correct, I am going to have to read better.

Have a great weekend all. I get to work with 5 great guys at as great ballpark in a great city this weekend. Hope you all have as much fun as I do this weekend.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by Durham

I agree we should work to get all called right, but unless I am mistaken, all codes say that I cannot change another umpires call and if I did my actions could be subject to protest and I would lose. The NCAA did give us a list of when the non calling umpires should step in and help without invite, but the OP isn't one of them.

the AA ougt to be ashamed then. in the op the PU isn't changing my call he is letting me do that by informing me I missed sonething that I couldn't see. It would be same like if there was a foot pull off the bag and Pu saw space and as BU I did not and called out.

The game has found away to survive this long as is, and has a process for this. The manager/HC comes out and argues the call. When that happens we have a choice and some umpires have a mechanic for this. I have worked with guys that will start down or others that remove their hat if they have something for me.

I don't understand so we are to let the game be played with wrong calls unless the manager sees that we are wrong? what?

To be honest if I were the calling umpire and knew I missed a crucial element of this play, I would stop the manager/HC on his way out before he got to me and I would get my crew together. After that there isn't much that anyone could argue. I didn't give the illusion that I let the coach talk me into it, he never got close enough to talk to me. As far as the being out of position argument, that is not a conversation that a coach and I are going to have, but he is correct, I am going to have to read better.

Have a great weekend all. I get to work with 5 great guys at as great ballpark in a great city this weekend. Hope you all have as much fun as I do this weekend.

Thanks.

[Garth Vader]

Originally Posted by biggravy

Garth, I'm confused why you come here asking the question in the OP, then 10 posts later you berate people for giving you an answer?

Berate the answers not the people.

As described, I am not expecting my partner to have a good look at that play. He has other responsibilities. Even going to him opens a whole other can of worms. If he was on that play he just told me, and the opposing coach, that he was not watching the other runners and thus negating his area of responsibility. I have no problem getting the best look I can using two person mechanics, and then telling the coach that I will not go for help on that play. Just my two cents.

I never would have beleived that getting the call right would be an issue here. I assumed other.

[Simply The Best]

Garth Vader, you're wasting your time, let it go. The majority has spoken and their position is crystal clear and quite telling.

[Rich]

2 posters now on the ignore list. Feel free to keep arguing with the "Three Faces of Troll," but please don't quote them so I don't have to read their idiocy.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Garth Vader

Here's my question.

1. Hindsight being 20/20 should I have looked to my partner for help even though to everyone watching (myself included) this game that the pitcher tagging the base twice suggested that he missed the base the first time.

2. Should my partner have come to me to let me know that he tagged the base the first time?

Gordon

Garth, I know I am a little late in this however, Bob is exactly right here, "Getting the call right is important. Getting it right the right way is also important -- and not every call can be "got right", especially in 2-person."

From your post, you had determined the runner was safe and declared it. If you had doubt, then ask your partner before you declare safe or out, or get in a better position to know for yourself. That is all everyone is saying here.

Your credibility is automatically on the line everytime you make a decision and then question it, by asking for help. The path you choose and the extent you go to, to "get the call rght" is entirely up to you. We are just passing on the experience that has worked best for us.