Runners Swap

[Gramps]

Look at the last sentence in 7.01

7.01 -- A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when that runner touches it before being put out. The runner is then entitled to it until put out or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his/her pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

This is an automatic out according to J/R.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Look at the last sentence in 7.01

7.01 -- A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when that runner touches it before being put out. The runner is then entitled to it until put out or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his/her pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

This is an automatic out according to J/R.

Gramps,
Originally this was a discussion from a Fed clinic and the rules most of us are citing are NFHS. In OBR, NCAA and Fed, a runner cannot legally obtain a base different than his position, unless through a base award when time has been called. In addition, these bases were not unoccupied. Therefore, 7.01 does not apply, right?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

My apologies but which way is it? You stated that you don't care if the coach is complicit or not but then how you would consider his reputation in deciding his fate.

I'm not clear on what you are advocating.

I said I don't particularly care. In other words, I don't always care whether the coach is complicit. I can see a situation where I'm 100% confident the coach wasn't involved. In that situation, I wouldn't dump the coach.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I disagree.

Using this logic, a coach should be ejected when a player bats out of order too.

Please cite the rule that demands a coach be punished for negligence with regards to either situation.

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I have seen players disregard directives of their coaches. From stealing or bunting when the score is already out of hand to blatant collisions when a coach is instructing the player to slide (bad blood between players, in this sitch), this occurs.

I have also seen players use equipment that is illegal. In at least one instance, the player attempted to use a bat that had been removed from the game. Do you eject the coach because the player tried to use a -10 bat? The coach afformed that all players were properly equipped during the plate meeting. Is he negligent because his player CHOSE to do something that is illegal? BTW, the penalty for using an illegal bat is an out, not player ejection.

I welcome discussion and know that I have been incorrect many times before. My wife reminds me daily.

There's a big difference between this and batting out of order. Batting out of order is a legitimate, but risky, tactic that is provided by and for in the rules. Quite frankly, I'm surprised it isn't attempted more often in lower level games where the opponents may not be as vigilant about the batting order.

Originally Posted by Gramps

Look at the last sentence in 7.01

7.01 -- A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when that runner touches it before being put out. The runner is then entitled to it until put out or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base. If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his/her pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.

This is an automatic out according to J/R.

I'm not an OBR ump so I don't have J/R. Does it mention specifically returning during a dead ball period or just returning in general?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I said I don't particularly care. In other words, I don't always care whether the coach is complicit. I can see a situation where I'm 100% confident the coach wasn't involved. In that situation, I wouldn't dump the coach.

Thanks, Eastshire. I agree that establishing intent is proper.

There's a big difference between this and batting out of order. Batting out of order is a legitimate, but risky, tactic that is provided by and for in the rules. Quite frankly, I'm surprised it isn't attempted more often in lower level games where the opponents may not be as vigilant about the batting order.

Not really. Intentionally placing an improper, good hitter at the plate is deceptive and the coach should be punished. Again, we fall back on establishing whether the coach should be held liable for a player doing this of his own volition. I don't see this happening in a Varsity game but in lower levels you are right, this is ripe for the picking. Thanks for the thoughts. I love this discussion!

Have a good season.

[MikeStrybel]

I emailed this question and the follwing debate to a friend and he responded with this:

It's a tie game and a slow catcher leads off the bottom of the last with a double. There (sic) coach requests time and yells for a courtesy runner. The defensive team requests a conference at the same time. The catcher jogs by the coach who congratulates him with some kind words. The stadium and dugout is going crazy. The defensive coach concludes his trip to the mound and you signal the ball back in. The first pitch is roped and the runner scores. As the defensive team slinks off the field there (sic) head coach notices that the runner had already been a courtesy runner for the pitcher.

According to him, this play happened last year in a playoff game he worked.

Do you eject the coach?

[Gramps]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I said I don't particularly care. In other words, I don't always care whether the coach is complicit. I can see a situation where I'm 100% confident the coach wasn't involved. In that situation, I wouldn't dump the coach.



There's a big difference between this and batting out of order. Batting out of order is a legitimate, but risky, tactic that is provided by and for in the rules. Quite frankly, I'm surprised it isn't attempted more often in lower level games where the opponents may not be as vigilant about the batting order.



I'm not an OBR ump so I don't have J/R. Does it mention specifically returning during a dead ball period or just returning in general?

The ball has to be live with the pitcher on the pitching rubber in order for this to apply. Example: R1, no outs. Batter swings and misses with F2 dropping the ball. R1 is stealing on the play and continues to 2nd. F2 get the ball tosses it back to F1 before he realizes that R1 is at second. F1 and R1 both think the ball was foul, but the plate umpire did not signal such. F1 is standing on the rubber with the ball getting ready for his next pitch when R1 (now R2) heads back to 1st because he thought he was required to on a foul ball. As soon as R1 touches 1st again he is out by rule 7.01.