Runners Swap

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The coach has a duty to supervise his runners and a responsibility for their on-field behavior. If he didn't tell them to switch places, he negligently allowed it. He's not entitled to the benefit of any doubt if this happens, and he's ejected in my game.

I disagree.

Using this logic, a coach should be ejected when a player bats out of order too.

Please cite the rule that demands a coach be punished for negligence with regards to either situation.

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I have seen players disregard directives of their coaches. From stealing or bunting when the score is already out of hand to blatant collisions when a coach is instructing the player to slide (bad blood between players, in this sitch), this occurs.

I have also seen players use equipment that is illegal. In at least one instance, the player attempted to use a bat that had been removed from the game. Do you eject the coach because the player tried to use a -10 bat? The coach afformed that all players were properly equipped during the plate meeting. Is he negligent because his player CHOSE to do something that is illegal? BTW, the penalty for using an illegal bat is an out, not player ejection.

I welcome discussion and know that I have been incorrect many times before. My wife reminds me daily.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I disagree.

Using this logic, a coach should be ejected when a player bats out of order too.

Please cite the rule that demands a coach be punished for negligence with regards to either situation.

Batting out of order and using an illegal bat are not the same order of cheating, are much more common, and have rules specifically addressed to them. These facts all tell against your inference that my ruling applies equally to them.

Not every possible act of cheating is addressed in the rules. Sometimes you just gotta umpire. I'm not telling you how to run your games, just reporting what I would do. And my approach seems consistent with the respected voices of this forum.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Batting out of order and using an illegal bat are not the same order of cheating, are much more common, and have rules specifically addressed to them. These facts all tell against your inference that my ruling applies equally to them.

Not every possible act of cheating is addressed in the rules. Sometimes you just gotta umpire. I'm not telling you how to run your games, just reporting what I would do. And my approach seems consistent with the respected voices of this forum.

First of all, I have maintained that I would eject a coach who was complicit in committing such a deceptive act. I have cited rules to support this. You have not.

Extending your belief, a coach should be ejected if his player knowingly bats out of order in an attempt to cheat and he is unaware of the deception.

I provided another example of what the rule states regarding use of an illegal bat - one used solely to cheat. This time, I even added the fact that the coach agreed that his players were properly equipped. Still, the rule says differently - a coach is not ejected, nor is the player!

My ruling has never once disagreed with 'the respected voices of this forum'. I only disagreed with your assertion that a coach be held liable for negligence. Cite the rule and I will happily concur. Until then, I respectfully disagree with your belief.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

First of all, I have maintained that I would eject a coach who was complicit in committing such a deceptive act. I have cited rules to support this. You have not.

Why would I need to? You did.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Extending your belief, a coach should be ejected if his player knowingly bats out of order in an attempt to cheat and he is unaware of the deception.

I provided another example of what the rule states regarding use of an illegal bat - one used solely to cheat. This time, I even added the fact that the coach agreed that his players were properly equipped. Still, the rule says differently - a coach is not ejected, nor is the player!

I've already explained why your "extension" of my claim is illegitimate.

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

My ruling has never once disagreed with 'the respected voices of this forum'. I only disagreed with your assertion that a coach be held liable for negligence. Cite the rule and I will happily concur. Until then, I respectfully disagree with your belief.

As you know, the rules do not address every possible transgression. I don't imagine that you will allow the defense to dig a moat around 2nd base and fill it with wine, but you can't point to a provision of the rules that specifically prohibits that act.

I respect your respectful disagreement. I've been reporting what I would do and why, so I'm not really trying to persuade you.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Why would I need to? You did.

Yes, I provided a rule that states that you may not eject a coach due to perceived negligence. I asked you to show me where that penalty is in the rule book for coach negligence with regards to players being deceitful. I still await that citation.

I've already explained why your "extension" of my claim is illegitimate.

No, you simply said that it is. The rule book doesn't support your belief.

As you know, the rules do not address every possible transgression. I don't imagine that you will allow the defense to dig a moat around 2nd base and fill it with wine, but you can't point to a provision of the rules that specifically prohibits that act.

Wow. I asked for you to supply a rule that shows a coach is subject to ejection for being negligent to the actions of his team. I gave two pertinent examples - a player attempts to cheat by batting out of order and another who uses illegal equipment. Neither qualifies as an ejection for the player OR the coach. That is what the rule book states. No, we don't have to have every possible infraction itemized but I have yet to find a rule, note, penalty, A.R., point of emphasis or other statement that suggests that a coach is subject to ejection for things beyond his control.

I also provided another play that actually occurred in a high school playoff game last year. I ask you again, would you dump the coach for that specific infraction?

I respect your respectful disagreement. I've been reporting what I would do and why, so I'm not really trying to persuade you.

My posts have been consistent - establish guilt and apply the proper penalty.
You implied that others who were respected voices here disagreed with me but that is not the case. Please don't do that. Thank you. I wish you a safe and pleasant baseball season.

[justanotherblue]

Since this is a fed discussion, I would use 3-3-1.4 Penalty. They're cheating period and well aware of it.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Since this is a fed discussion, I would use 3-3-1.4 Penalty. They're cheating period and well aware of it.

Thanks. I cited that earlier.

This isn't a contest. I enjoy discussing plays and the things that can and do go wrong in our games. Thank you for reminding us of the rule we can use once guilt is established. Good luck this season. We still have snow on the ground here but it won't be long.