Runners gone haywire

Yeggman · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 12:58am

38 year old rookie ump this year (what's the record for oldest rookie ump? I'm sure I don't approach it). Looking forward to learning as much as I can from y'all.

Anyway, in one of my very first games (10U rec, FP) out here in the land of Aah-nold the Govenaytah, I had the following sitch:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. One out. Gotta passed ball. R1 heads for home. Rule 8-4-H: R1 can't go home but is at risk. Coaches know it, scream for her to get back. She beelines for 2B w/o touching 3B. When R1 gets to 2B, R2 from 1B rounds 2B passing her. I call R2 out for passing R1 (rule 8-7-D). At this point, I believe I cannot call R1 out unless defense appeals (rule 8-7-G) so I leave her on 2B.

How did I do?

Dale

JEL · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 08:25am

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of 10U softball. I hate it and love it at the same time (they are cute!). R1 can not advance, but nothing stops her from moving back to an un-occupied base. There is a rule concerning running in reverse order, but it must be done in an effort to confuse the defense, or make a travesty of the game. I don't see either of those conditions in your post. You can R2 out on the pass, R1 is safe at 2B, appeal would have put R1 out, but why? R1 would be out on appeal for not re-touching 3B on her way to 2B. You got it right Blue.

BTW 38 aint old at all, all you've lost is the juniors discount at Shoneys! I started at 44, and am awaiting my sr citizens freebies!

[Edited by JEL on Mar 10th, 2004 at 08:18 AM]

chuck chopper · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 09:22am

Let me mess things up a bit. If a play was being made on the runner coming from 3rd, and she headed straight for 2nd by mistake. Then she is out of the base line & out. Then there is no passing going on.

Dakota · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 10:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by chuck chopper
Let me mess things up a bit. If a play was being made on the runner coming from 3rd, and she headed straight for 2nd by mistake. Then she is out of the base line & out. Then there is no passing going on.

There is no requirement that a runner be anywhere near the base line regardless of what the defense is doing (exception: 3' lane with a BR provides a safe haven from interference with the catch at 1st).

I think you meant base path.

Here is the ASA definition of a base path:
A base path is a direct line between a base and the runner's position at the time a defensive player is attempting (or about to attempt) to tag a runner.

So, at the time of the tag attempt, the runner's base path was a direct line from her position to her forward base or to her retreating base.

If she makes a bee-line to 2nd, wouldn't that be her retreating base? Sure, she could be appealed out, but I still don't see a direct call of out. She's not swinging wide to avoid a tag (the purpose of the rule), she is retreating to the wrong base.

chuck chopper · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 10:29am

If a base runner is required to go back to third by rule, and the catcher and 3rd baseman are attempting to make a play on her, & she makes a "B"line for 2nd base...I think she is out right away. What a crazy play !
So this talk of the trailing runner passing her out there by 2nd base somewhere is not applicable.

DaveASA/FED · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 10:52am

Chuck,
I see your point it is a HTBT. If the catch had already thrown the ball to 3rd and then the R1 head to 2nd I agree, she was trying to avoid a tag. But if the catch was still trying to find the ball (quite possible in a 10U rec game) or had even started to throw it and R1's back was to the plate and she made a bee line to 2nd, because of inexperience not because she knew the ball was on it's way to 3rd and she was trying to avoid the tag, then I say she is safe until appeal. Avoiding a tag is umpires judgement, if she tried to avoid the tag your right "Dead ball, runner is out." and place R2 on the last base legally touched at time of dead ball. But if she just lost her mind and ran to 2nd then you have the out for passing on R2 and R1 is a jeopardy to be put out if appealed.

chuck chopper · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 11:04am

If runner is called out for running out of the basepath to avoid a tag it is NOT a dead ball situation.

DaveASA/FED · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 11:10am

Your right, my bad!! What was I thinking?? Thanks Chuck.

JEL · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 11:40am

Bottom line is...

10U, or the "Black and Blue League" as we call it around here will keep you on your toes. Lot of walks, not much defense, it will lull you then POW a play as Yeggman had which requires all kinds of rule knowledge, and one you never see in the upper divisions. 10U is a good development league for players as well as Blues!

Yeggman · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 11:58am

DaveASA pointed out something I left out. Catcher was still locating the ball when R1 took off for 2B, so there was no direct play being made on her at that point.

jxt127 · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 12:34pm

I did my first Baseball behind the plate at 44.

I agree on lots of walks and no defense at that level. Had a game last year, working hard to stay awake on the bases with all the walks. Finally a hit ball and the defence turns a triple play!

IRISHMAFIA · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 10, 2004, 01:07pm

Speaking ASA

As pointed out, there is no such rule to call a runner out for leaving a base line. There is no immediate penalty for running to a wrong base unless you passed another runner to do it. R2 is obviously out.

Now, here is where the problem lies. If the umpire kills the ball prior to an appeal of 3B, you must let the runner return to touch the base prior to accepting the appeal. Even better, according to the book, once the ball becomes dead and a runner has advanced beyond the base where they belong, the umpire is instructed to return the runner to the correct base without liability to be put out. The book, however, does not address specifically what to do when the runner ends up a base behind.

This would make for a great discussion in the middle of the field with both coaches and a bunch of parents (all experts in the 10U rules) screaming what to do.

The smart thing for the runner to have done was score. That way, she could not have been put out, but just returned to 3B. But at 10U, what do you want?

kono · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 11, 2004, 09:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by JEL
Bottom line is...

10U, or the "Black and Blue League" ...

LL Minors baseball has got to be one of the worst - pitchers just learning to pitch. Catchers just learning to catch - they never get that glove up quick enough on an inside pitch. Forearm guards are the order of the day.

Typical pitch goes something like this: Outs don't matter - no runners. Pitch gets past F2. F2 whips off helmet - goes charging to the backstop and retrieves ball. F2 fires ball to pitcher - ball is no in short center field. F8 now retrieves the ball and throws it to the pitcher. The ball is now resting against the dugout fence. F5 retrieves the ball....