Runners Swap

[rbmartin]

If the swap occured without notice of the umpire and the #3 batter (Charles) scores while the #2 batter (Baker) is still on third, the the only reasonable conclusion would be that Charles passed Baker while running the bases. Call Charles out via 7.08(h). If still less than 3 outs, leave Baker where he's at. Leave Batter where he's at. Eject Charles and Coach when they start arguing with you.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

If the swap occured without notice of the umpire and the #3 batter (Charles) scores while the #2 batter (Baker) is still on third, the the only reasonable conclusion would be that Charles passed Baker while running the bases. Call Charles out via 7.08(h). If still less than 3 outs, leave Baker where he's at. Leave Batter where he's at. Eject Charles and Coach when they start arguing with you.

It's also a reasonable conclusion that Charles and Baker batted out of order without being discovered. You would have to know with certainty the order Baker and Charles came to bat.

If I were convinced the players had switched positions on the bases, I definitely agree with dumping the players and the coach. I don't particularly care if the coach knows what's going on as he has a duty to prevent this stuff. That might vary depending on the coach's reputation though. (A coach that's know to be squeaky clean probably get the benefit of the doubt from me.)

I have a harder time with the outs, even if I like the idea of throwing every thing we can at them. How can we consider movement during a defensive conference to be running the bases (in either direction)? Are we going to start calling the trail runner out if he gets over to the third base coach first or stays longer than the lead runner?

Two outs may be the just solution, but I think it has dubious support in the rules.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

If I were convinced the players had switched positions on the bases, I definitely agree with dumping the players and the coach. I don't particularly care if the coach knows what's going on as he has a duty to prevent this stuff. That might vary depending on the coach's reputation though. (A coach that's know to be squeaky clean probably get the benefit of the doubt from me.)

My apologies but which way is it? You stated that you don't care if the coach is complicit or not but then how you would consider his reputation in deciding his fate.

I'm not clear on what you are advocating.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

My apologies but which way is it? You stated that you don't care if the coach is complicit or not but then how you would consider his reputation in deciding his fate.

I'm not clear on what you are advocating.

The coach has a duty to supervise his runners and a responsibility for their on-field behavior. If he didn't tell them to switch places, he negligently allowed it. He's not entitled to the benefit of any doubt if this happens, and he's ejected in my game.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The coach has a duty to supervise his runners and a responsibility for their on-field behavior. If he didn't tell them to switch places, he negligently allowed it. He's not entitled to the benefit of any doubt if this happens, and he's ejected in my game.

I disagree.

Using this logic, a coach should be ejected when a player bats out of order too.

Please cite the rule that demands a coach be punished for negligence with regards to either situation.

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I have seen players disregard directives of their coaches. From stealing or bunting when the score is already out of hand to blatant collisions when a coach is instructing the player to slide (bad blood between players, in this sitch), this occurs.

I have also seen players use equipment that is illegal. In at least one instance, the player attempted to use a bat that had been removed from the game. Do you eject the coach because the player tried to use a -10 bat? The coach afformed that all players were properly equipped during the plate meeting. Is he negligent because his player CHOSE to do something that is illegal? BTW, the penalty for using an illegal bat is an out, not player ejection.

I welcome discussion and know that I have been incorrect many times before. My wife reminds me daily.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I disagree.

Using this logic, a coach should be ejected when a player bats out of order too.

Please cite the rule that demands a coach be punished for negligence with regards to either situation.

Batting out of order and using an illegal bat are not the same order of cheating, are much more common, and have rules specifically addressed to them. These facts all tell against your inference that my ruling applies equally to them.

Not every possible act of cheating is addressed in the rules. Sometimes you just gotta umpire. I'm not telling you how to run your games, just reporting what I would do. And my approach seems consistent with the respected voices of this forum.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Batting out of order and using an illegal bat are not the same order of cheating, are much more common, and have rules specifically addressed to them. These facts all tell against your inference that my ruling applies equally to them.

Not every possible act of cheating is addressed in the rules. Sometimes you just gotta umpire. I'm not telling you how to run your games, just reporting what I would do. And my approach seems consistent with the respected voices of this forum.

First of all, I have maintained that I would eject a coach who was complicit in committing such a deceptive act. I have cited rules to support this. You have not.

Extending your belief, a coach should be ejected if his player knowingly bats out of order in an attempt to cheat and he is unaware of the deception.

I provided another example of what the rule states regarding use of an illegal bat - one used solely to cheat. This time, I even added the fact that the coach agreed that his players were properly equipped. Still, the rule says differently - a coach is not ejected, nor is the player!

My ruling has never once disagreed with 'the respected voices of this forum'. I only disagreed with your assertion that a coach be held liable for negligence. Cite the rule and I will happily concur. Until then, I respectfully disagree with your belief.

[MikeStrybel]

I tossed this play around with a few umpire friends last night. One of the issues we considered is what is the appeal. I believe that the coach would be correct in appealing the RUNNING OF THE BASES, not the placement of the runners pre-pitch. In that instance, the runners did not touch the bases in their proper order, having swapped their original position. As time had been granted for the conference, both runners cannot move from their base unless a base award is granted. That did not happen. The pitch to the batter only began the appealable play.

As for the batter, I leave him on base because without his being there, the penalty for incorrectly running the bases is irrelevant. The B/R did nothing wrong. We have two outs, a runner on first. The two runners are ejected and depending on coach complicity, he may be as well. If the team cannot field the appropriate amount of players, we have a forefeit. Further, if you dump the coach because he ordered the swap, you can forefeit the game under 4-4-1d.

Great question! I hope someone can ask Fed for their take so that we can debate some more.