3B Coach Interference Ends Game

[jkumpire]

I appreciate knowing you at least read my posts!

First, the man is a great umpire. He's in the Show, and when I tried to get there, I did not make it. Unless #25 is your MLB or AAA MiLB number, I really think you need to assume he is a great umpire to even get to the show.

If he's incompetent on the MLB level, maybe, maybe not. But he is a great umpire to be there on that level, whatever we think of his ability.

I am trying to understand where the definition of "physically assisting the runner" has become a judgment call. When I look at the play: The runner is making a turn like he is trying to score, he very much overruns the bag (because he is trying to score), and he barely gets back in front of the tag. Correct?

In the middle of all that the 3B coach has some kind of contact with him, either light or almost none. Correct?

If any part of these items are correct, then why is the 3B coach and the runner getting such a wide leeway for not violating the rule? Any touch at all would be more than enough help to the runner that he had better get back to 3B; obviously he knows it's not a given he's safe at home. Add touch with voice from the 3B coach, and it just seems to me to be a clear rule violation.

When your wife or significant other goes by you and gently taps you on the shoulder, do you not notice and respond? Of course you do. If the 3B coach is yelling STOP STOP STOP, or BACK BACK BACK, and gently makes contact with the runner, you are going to tell me that the 3B coach is not assisting the runner physically to listen to his instructions?

IMO, you folks are parsing the rule like a lawyer who wants everything to be a shade of gray to save his client. The rule is black and white here, and unless you think there was no contact, there has to be an out.

Good call, great thread and conversation .

[dfwump]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

According to Jim Evans you're correct, according to some on this board who have more expertise than Evans, you are wrong. I'm with Jim.

This confuses me. Can you cite a interp or a case?

Mike

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I appreciate knowing you at least read my posts!

First, the man is a great umpire. He's in the Show, and when I tried to get there, I did not make it. Unless #25 is your MLB or AAA MiLB number, I really think you need to assume he is a great umpire to even get to the show.

Just because one is an MLB Umpire doesn't mean he's "great." Many make the Show not on their ability but for reasons into which I shall not get at this time. There are several MLB Umpires who are, to say the least, very poor umpires. Marquez is not among the worst, IMHO, but he certainly is not "great," as illustrated by this call. The fact that he was shown giving the pushing sign when explaining his call only serves to confirm what Steven Tyler above said: he butchered the call.

But he is a great umpire to be there on that level, whatever we think of his ability.

No he's not. Stop being such an MLB Ump fanboy or apologist. They're human; they screw up; and some are absolutely horrible and should not be at that level.

Any touch at all would be more than enough help to the runner that he had better get back to 3B; obviously he knows it's not a given he's safe at home.

So if a coach attempts to get out of the way of a rounding runner but the runner plows into him, this is contact and consequently automatically assistance? Poppycock.

The rule is black and white here, and unless you think there was no contact, there has to be an out.

Emphasis added.

No, there does not have to be an out if contact is made. That's poor logic and an incorrect understanding of the rule.

[Sven K]

It seems to me that the runner is applying his max braking effort before the touch. It's not like the coach tapped him to get his attention, he already had it.

It is asking a lot of Marquez to both get into position to see the call at the bag and at the same time get a good look at the wide turn the runner is making.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Just because one is an MLB Umpire doesn't mean he's "great." Many make the Show not on their ability but for reasons into which I shall not get at this time. There are several MLB Umpires who are, to say the least, very poor umpires. Marquez is not among the worst, IMHO, but he certainly is not "great," as illustrated by this call. The fact that he was shown giving the pushing sign when explaining his call only serves to confirm what Steven Tyler above said: he butchered the call.



No he's not. Stop being such an MLB Ump fanboy or apologist. They're human; they screw up; and some are absolutely horrible and should not be at that level.




So if a coach attempts to get out of the way of a rounding runner but the runner plows into him, this is contact and consequently automatically assistance? Poppycock.




Emphasis added.

No, there does not have to be an out if contact is made. That's poor logic and an incorrect understanding of the rule.

Wow again.

Nice 'fanboy' label. Weakens your argument though doesn't it? I disagree with you, and hold MLB umpires to a higher level of respect than others, and that makes me a fanboy? You are better than that.

Sadly, I disagree with you and My. Tyler. He did not butcher the call, and sadly all the rhetoric has not made a coherent case why he did butcher it. It all comes down to this: You believe there is a certain level of physical contact that does not help a runner in the context of that play.

But in that video we are discussing there is no context of the play. We hear nothing going on at the base, we have no great angle to see who is seeing what.

As to the runner plowing the the 3B coach, and getting called out the for 3B coach assisting the runner: Please, pack up the straw man and put him away. Nobody in their right mind would make that call, and we all know it.

[Eastshire]

I think he missed it, but I'm not going to fault him for it. My judgment was there was no assistance from the touch (I do believe there was a touch). Had the coach been a 6" closer there likely would have been assistance.

It is not unreasonable to judge this as assistance.

Difficult call, it could have gone either way.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by UMP25

KJ, the fact that it's a dead ball is irrelevant. A runner can still be declared out in such situations.

Correct. That is why I prefer to use the term, "end of playing action".

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

What a Twinkie fanboy. Can you honestly say he was watching by the evidence in that clip? When I saw it in real time, it appeared that Marquez was watching the tag at third as Young dove back in. His timing and mechanics looked like he was pointing at Dave Anderson for help on the call and then punched the out signal.

My initial reaction was that he had banged Young out at third when he appeared safe.

If you want to see a classic example of coach's interference, find some video of Mark Maguire hitting number 62. He is jumping up and down and clearly misses first on his way to second. The first base coach has to grab him by the arm to get him to return to touch the base. No interference was called by the way.

Marquez's call was butchered and the rule wasn't enforced properly.

Far from a homer. Twins fan yes. Please don't ever post that I would officiate or agree/disagree with an umpire's call different from how I would umpire it whether it's my home team or not. You don't know me. Deeply offensive. You may disagree with how I would've called it or how I interpreted the video (we obviously disagree which is fine that's the point of this forum) but it has NOTHING to do with the fact that I watch the Twins.

[johnnyg08]

Is it possible that the "push" signal is a mechanic? I don't know if it is or not...certainly we're all smart enough to know and see that it wasn't a push by any means. What is the mechanic for that call, if that's not what Marquez was doing?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

]Please, pack up the straw man and put him away.[/I][/B] Nobody in their right mind would make that call, and we all know it.

Careful, JEA has almost this exact case play stating it's an out.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Is it possible that the "push" signal is a mechanic?

No. Marquez used the push signal (football's pass interference signal) to tell the coach that he pushed the runner, which he in no way did. Because Marquez never saw what truly happened, he simply thought a push occurred. It did not; he erred. Big time.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I disagree with you, and hold MLB umpires to a higher level of respect than others...

Why? Just because they're MLB Umpires? They, like us, must earn respect. Respect is not bestowed upon someone simply because they hold a certain position. The person in that position still has to earn it. MLB Umpires may be the top of our profession, but they can screw up with the best of them just as easily as we can. Heck, some did so last post-season. In fact, two MLB Umpires who were scheduled to work the World Series last year got yanked from it because of their terrible umpiring during the divisional series.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by UMP25

No. Marquez used the push signal (football's pass interference signal) to tell the coach that he pushed the runner, which he in no way did. Because Marquez never saw what truly happened, he simply thought a push occurred. It did not; he erred. Big time.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but what is the mechanic for that?

Point and say "that's interference" I suppose?

[johnnyg08]

Here's a post from another forum on the mechanic. Can anybody say with certainty or any other AO that this would be wrong?

The "push sign" is a standard mechanic that umpires will use to convey the coach's interference. It not unlike the safe off the bag mechanic or the out of the baseline mechanic. It is just a signal to communicate to everybody watching why he made the call.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Respect is not bestowed upon someone simply because they hold a certain position. The person in that position still has to earn it.

I disagree. I was taught to always respect someone, and people lose respect with the things they do.