dropped third strike

[PeteBooth]

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

It adds excitement to the game.

Pete Booth

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

I don't see your parallel at all, Pete.

GA said it best, though, and that's "we don't want to change it." Any of us could make up a rule that adds excitement to any game, but ultimately, would that rule make sense in helping to determine the better team? I don't see how this rule does that at all, particularly when you're bailing out a batter who struck out, and punishing a pitcher who earned that third strike.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

It adds excitement to the game.

Pete Booth

What research led you to this incorrect cause and effect?

[Forest Ump]

Ump JM put it out there as to why a batter becomes a runner on an uncaught third strike. It's been that way a long, long time. It's part of the game. It still amazes me when young players, new dad coaches, and new parent (grandparent) fans act as if this is something new that they have never heard of before. Of course they don't understand it. They think the game is simple. Hit, catch, and throw. Try to explain the bases occupied with less than two outs rule and you get that deer in the headlights look. It's there to protect the offense from getting a cheap double play. The game is balanced between offense and defense.

[gotblue?]

Originally Posted by Forest Ump

It's there to protect the offense from getting a cheap double play. The game is balanced between offense and defense.

I am not trying to take this part of your post out of context, but I think that there may be a disconnect here.

An uncaught third strike would only result in a cheap double play if the rule is that a batter is allowed to advance on any uncaught third strike where there would be, as a result of the baserunner being able to advance, forces at at least two bases (i.e., 1B occupied), with less than two out, or if there are already two out. So, yes, the current rule prevents such a cheap DP.

Those who are arguing that the rule makes no sense seem to be arguing that the concept of allowing a batter to attempt to attain 1B after a 3rd strike (caught or uncaught) should be done away with, and/or, possibly, in their minds, should never have been part of the rules. If the batter is not able to attempt to attain 1B, then no baserunners are being forced to advance, and no "cheap" DPs are available.

I think those in the latter camp are questioning why there was ever a rule allowing the batter to advance after "striking out". Have I missed the rationale for this? (other than a couple of opinions, from well-regarded posters, that it possibl was intended to make the game more exciting)? Also, it appears that the rule was changed along the way to allowing a batter to attempt to attain 1B only on an "uncaught" third strike, as opposed to any third strike. If that is correct, what was the rationale for that rule change?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by gotblue?

I think those in the latter camp are questioning why there was ever a rule allowing the batter to advance after "striking out". Have I missed the rationale for this? (other than a couple of opinions, from well-regarded posters, that it possibl was intended to make the game more exciting)? Also, it appears that the rule was changed along the way to allowing a batter to attempt to attain 1B only on an "uncaught" third strike, as opposed to any third strike. If that is correct, what was the rationale for that rule change?

The reasoning is that the defense has to complete a play to get an out, whether it is a tag of a base or runner, a caught batted ball, or a strikeout. Without a caught third strike, the defense has not completed the play.

Now, here's where the avoidance of a cheap double play comes in. The rule is written as such to prevent the defense from not completing the play and gaining an advantage by doing so (similar to an intentionally dropped batted ball in the infield or the infield fly rule.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by gotblue?

I think those in the latter camp are questioning why there was ever a rule allowing the batter to advance after "striking out". Have I missed the rationale for this? (other than a couple of opinions, from well-regarded posters, that it possibl was intended to make the game more exciting)? Also, it appears that the rule was changed along the way to allowing a batter to attempt to attain 1B only on an "uncaught" third strike, as opposed to any third strike. If that is correct, what was the rationale for that rule change?

It's been in the game from the beginning.

First, the batter became a runner on every "third" strike (or whatever the number was then).

When the catcher played well back of the batter, and the ball was softer and quickly became out-of-round, and no one used gloves, it was no sure thing that the BR would be out.

As the catcher moved to the current position, and used gloves, it became "boring" to have to make the play when the strike was caught. So, the rule was changed so that the batter became a runner only when the strike was uncaught.

Then, crafty catchers realized they could get two outs if they didn't catch the third strike in certain situations. So, the rule was changed to the current rule.

[mbyron]

Thanks, Bob.

I will add that the idea of a "cheap" double play should not be part of an umpire's vocabulary. If the rules permit a double play in a given situation, then it's not our business how the defense got it or whether it was "fair" or "cheap."

For an umpire, the rules define fairness. Unfair is playing outside the rules. (Students of the game are entitled to a different perspective, but be careful which hat you're wearing and who your audience is.)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Thanks, Bob.

I will add that the idea of a "cheap" double play should not be part of an umpire's vocabulary. If the rules permit a double play in a given situation, then it's not our business how the defense got it or whether it was "fair" or "cheap."

For an umpire, the rules define fairness. Unfair is playing outside the rules. (Students of the game are entitled to a different perspective, but be careful which hat you're wearing and who your audience is.)

The notion of fairness and not allowing a cheap double play drives a few of the rules -- the infield fly, the uncaught third strike, and the intentionally dropped ball -- and understanding the reasoning behind the rules certainly helps in their enforcement.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's been in the game from the beginning.

First, the batter became a runner on every "third" strike (or whatever the number was then).

When the catcher played well back of the batter, and the ball was softer and quickly became out-of-round, and no one used gloves, it was no sure thing that the BR would be out.

As the catcher moved to the current position, and used gloves, it became "boring" to have to make the play when the strike was caught. So, the rule was changed so that the batter became a runner only when the strike was uncaught.

Then, crafty catchers realized they could get two outs if they didn't catch the third strike in certain situations. So, the rule was changed to the current rule.

The NFHS rule used to read that the batter becomes a batter runner on every third strike and in another section it said the batter is out when a third strike is caught or when first is occupied with less than two outs.

May still say this, but I don't think so (and I'm not looking it up now).

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The NFHS rule used to read that the batter becomes a batter runner on every third strike and in another section it said the batter is out when a third strike is caught or when first is occupied with less than two outs.

May still say this, but I don't think so (and I'm not looking it up now).

8-1-1. A batter becomes a runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second, third and home bases in the listed order when: b. he is charged with a third strike; 1. If third strike is caught, he is out an instant after he becomes a runner.