dropped third strike

[Sven K]

A simple but often misunderstood rule. Parents all yelling "but first base is occupied! first base is occupied!".

One crew member and I were discussing the origin of the rule and he sumised that as a defense you have to "earn" that third out. Made good sense to me.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Sven K

A simple but often misunderstood rule. Parents all yelling "but first base is occupied! first base is occupied!".

One crew member and I were discussing the origin of the rule and he sumised that as a defense you have to "earn" that third out. Made good sense to me.

I think part of it is also to prevent the defense from dropping a third strike on purpose to get a cheap double play. I think that's another reason it applies with only two outs.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Sven K

One crew member and I were discussing the origin of the rule and he sumised that as a defense you have to "earn" that third out. Made good sense to me.

I always thought you earned the out when the batter earned strike three.

IMO, it's one of the worst rules in sports when a strike can be treated the same as a fairly batted ball.

[UmpJM]

bainsey,

You don't understand the history of the game and its rules.

From the JEA discussion of 6.09(b):

Historical Notes: Under the original Major League Code (1876), a batsman who struck at and missed a third
strike OR failed to strike at a good ball for the called third strike was obligated to run to first base "... as in the case
of hitting a fair ball."

The Rules of 1887 specified that the batsman became a base runner "... instantly after four strikes have been
declared by the umpire." This four strike provision lasted only one year.

As late as the 1940's, the batter was entitled to advance (with liability) after three strikes had been called by
the umpire. By the time of the recodification in 1950, a provision had been added that stipulated that the batter
could advance (with liability) after three strikes had been called when the third strike was not caught unless there
is a runner on first base with not more than one out.

Essentially, this changed the previous rule in two ways: (1) The batter could legally advance as a runner only
if the third strike was NOT caught; and (2) The batter was not permitted to advance if first base was occupied with
less than two outs.

In 1956, the wording was simplified to its present form.

JM

[bainsey]

JM, I'm aware of the history. I'm also aware that rules in all sports are changed over time, when they're believed to be nonsensical. I have always believed this rule to be a mess.

"That's the way it has always been" is seldom a good reason to maintain anything, yet it's the only reason I've ever heard for the rule regarding strike three hitting the dirt.

Let's review. In a nutshell, when strike one or two hits the dirt, the batter is charged with a strike, and the defense did its part to earn that strike. When strike three hits the dirt, the batter gets the same result as a batted ball, and the defense doesn't earn that strike. Does that sound consistent and fair?

On top of that, the batter earns the equivalent of a batted ball, even if the ball goes into foul ground without touching any fielder in fair territory, something he'd never get if he actually put his bat on the ball. And, if first base is already occupied with zero or one out(s), then forget the whole thing.

What's wrong with a little simplicity? If the batter swings and misses, or takes a pitch in the strike zone, the defense has earned the strike, period. What's wrong with this rationale?

[johnnyg08]

The ball must be caught (and a couple of other things) for there to be an out.

Just like a ground ball that is thrown to retire the batter/runner at 1B.

F3 must catch the ball for there to be a put out. If F2 doesn't catch strike three we do not have a put out.

It's pretty simple really.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

The ball must be caught (and a couple of other things) for there to be an out.

Just like a ground ball that is thrown to retire the batter/runner at 1B.

F3 must catch the ball for there to be a put out. If F2 doesn't catch strike three we do not have a put out.

It's pretty simple really.

Except that everything you just said is incredibly wrong. Since when does F3 have to catch the ball? Obviously never - we've all seen great scoops by F3 on bouncing throws.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Except that everything you just said is incredibly wrong. Since when does F3 have to catch the ball? Obviously never - we've all seen great scoops by F3 on bouncing throws.

Haven't seen it on a pitch lately though. You know what I mean.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bainsey

What's wrong with a little simplicity? If the batter swings and misses, or takes a pitch in the strike zone, the defense has earned the strike, period. What's wrong with this rationale?

The fact that most don't want it. It adds an element to the game. It may create a little more action in the game. The offense still has an opportunity to turn a bad thing into something positive.

It's part of baseball and I, for one, want it to stay the way it is. It keeps the offense, defense, and umpire on their toes and paying attention to the situation.

[PeteBooth]

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

It adds excitement to the game.

Pete Booth

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

I don't see your parallel at all, Pete.

GA said it best, though, and that's "we don't want to change it." Any of us could make up a rule that adds excitement to any game, but ultimately, would that rule make sense in helping to determine the better team? I don't see how this rule does that at all, particularly when you're bailing out a batter who struck out, and punishing a pitcher who earned that third strike.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The same reasoning that the rules allow a runner to over-run first base without liability to be put out.

It adds excitement to the game.

Pete Booth

What research led you to this incorrect cause and effect?

[Forest Ump]

Ump JM put it out there as to why a batter becomes a runner on an uncaught third strike. It's been that way a long, long time. It's part of the game. It still amazes me when young players, new dad coaches, and new parent (grandparent) fans act as if this is something new that they have never heard of before. Of course they don't understand it. They think the game is simple. Hit, catch, and throw. Try to explain the bases occupied with less than two outs rule and you get that deer in the headlights look. It's there to protect the offense from getting a cheap double play. The game is balanced between offense and defense.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bainsey

What's wrong with a little simplicity? If the batter swings and misses, or takes a pitch in the strike zone, the defense has earned the strike, period. What's wrong with this rationale?

Nothing at all, as soon as you get to be an owner or commissioner of MLB, submit your rule changes.