Joyce misses one

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.

Lee:

Mark, Jr., and I think you for your astute observation. As some people on this Forum know, I am the father of two first basemen (Andy, still in H.S., and MTD, Jr., who now umpires H.S. baseball).

MTD, Jr., and I still are of the opinion that F1 did not have control of the throw until after he pulled his foot off of 1B, but MTD, Jr., also made the following comment after watching the replay: "The gods of baseball got it right. F3 had no business fielding the ball. This should have been a routine 4-3 ground out, with the B/R being out by a mile."

By the way Jim Joyce is a NW Ohio boy, having graduated for Toledo (Ohio) Central Catholic H.S. and Bowling Green (Ohio) State Univ.; he played baseball at both schools. He now livesi in Oregon, Ohio, an eastern suburb of Toledo. I do not recall ever meeting him because he was in the Majors before I moved to Toledo.

MTD, Sr.

[LMan]

Will Selig or Tigers official scorer retroactively rule the play an error?

[APG]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

Basketball official here...I'm a bit surprised that you would advocate this route. You are usually one who is a stickler for following the rules.

Already hearing about it on sports talk radio and ESPN non stop. Many think this will be THE impetus for expanding replay (and if they did it, I would totally be in favor for it). Even heard calls for Bud Selig to retroactively declare the out and award the perfect game. I find that one a little less likely to happen.

[DLH17]

I was impressed with Joyce's decision to admit he made a mistake on that call. Hopefully, this does not damage his career too much, if at all.

Leyland's comment about Joyce during his post game interview were classy and might help soften a lot of potential impact to Joyce.

[cviverito]

I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one? Either way it matters not because, as we all know, Joyce thought the runner beat it.

I do see him begin to wind-up for the punch...but I give him credit for calling what his brain had instead of what his heart wanted.

[mbyron]

There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.

[jimpiano]

MTD, Sr.[/QUOTE]

God, what total bullcrap.
The first baseman made the play and the throw beat the runner by a step.
There was no bobble, certainly none that the umpire saw or he would have said so.
Joyce blew the call and admitted it.
He put it all on his shoulders and asked for no mercy.
You ought to appreciate that and quit making feeble excuses Joyce himself would reject.
He is a man who made a mistake, then owned up to it.
He will be behind the plate today and life will go on.

[cviverito]

Originally Posted by cviverito

I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one?

Ok - I found it. I don't see any lack of control. I see a snow-cone catch. But I have it in slo-mo. Joyce thought he beat it. As he said he kicked it.

[David B]

Originally Posted by LMan

Will Selig or Tigers official scorer retroactively rule the play an error?

But that does no good, it still ruins a perfect game, simply gives him a no-hitter.

i thought it interesting this morning Don Denkinger (sp?) was interviewed on Mike and Mike and he was in favor of "instant replay" in certain situations.

We all know that it won't work in many situations because of the nature of baseball, but on a play such as this one with no other runners on base it could be used. At least that was his take.

One other comment interesting this morning watching ESPN, the runner who was ruled safe said, "given the situation, I was expecting to be called out."

Wow that is revealing to me that the players know there is such thing as the "expected call" in certain situations.
I give him credit for being honest.

Thanks
David

[DLH17]

Speaking of Denkinger, he must be loving the fact he's off the hotseat now after 25 years.

[cviverito]

One thing that comes to mind for me - "situation awareness". Almost always a good thing for an umpire to have. Especially good for being prepared to get into position.

I think there are some details in a game that we might not want to be aware of - they are score and who the game is important to and why. I think knowing that can draw on our emotions...which I think can cloud our judgment. After all...we're only human. Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Case-in-point against knowing...called a banger at 1st base in a conf JUCCO game earlier this year...got it right. Total focus on the sound, etc. Glad I got it right too because it sealed a no-hitter. Walking off the field I was like (best Eddie Murphy "where's all my money?" impression) 'hey...why the hell are all the players dog-piling on the mound?'...then I looked at the score-board and it all made sense.

Not that knowing would have made my call anything else...but it would have increased the pressure to get it right. Pressure...love the rush...but it can be an obstacle to an umpire.

[Dealone]

The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.

[DLH17]

I didn't see a bobble.

[jimpiano]

The idea that the first baseman somehow contributed to the confusion by fielding the ball and throwing out the runner on a pitcher covering is the most ludicrous defense I have seen on here.

It was a simple play and it was the 27th out of a perfect game!
I played first base.
That is a routine play for professionals who practice pitcher covering all year long.
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cviverito

Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Only in the last inning (or near the time limit), so I know when to call the game over. Importance of the game? Every game is important... if one is "more" important to someone, I agree with you - I don't want to know it.