R3 Misses Plate on Walk

chuckfan1 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 04:25pm

Im having a hard time on this one, that actually happenned, what say ye all?
Bases Loaded. Ball 4 to batter. R3 comes in, but misses home plate by about two feet, fair territory, continuing on towards his 1st base dugout. Starts high-fiving teammates, etc. Does not get all the way to the dugout.
Def coach notices this, and calls for the pitcher to throw the ball back to the catcher. Pitcher was standing in front of the mound. F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.
I ring up an out, out of instinct. Having never seen the play before, or probably never again, it just looked like an out.
Off coach argues that F2 needed to tag R3, and that R3 had up until he entered the dugout to touch home. Off coach asked me to check with my partner which I did. My partner stated that R3 was entitled to home, he was not awarded it.
He agreed with my call, and the call stood.
After the game, we talked about it some more, and I was having second thoughts. My partner stated how far do you want to protect the offense? The fact R3 blew right by home, didnt realize it, then only tried to retouch after becoming aware because of the actions of the defense.
Plus, he said you could get the out too, as he was high-fivin' when he returned to try to touch, getting a little push in the back, by the on-deck batter, to get back to home....."I'm giving this one to the defense."...he says.
I could be over analyzing this, but the fact that it was a walk, is what is sticking with me. Im having trouble getting past that. That it was on a walk. That I needed to give more leeway to R3 to touch, even though it was a stupid play, not necessarily a rules violation.
I have since got an AO on this, but first, has anyone got anything different? Or if the same call, but for a different reason? Thanks......

IveGot3rd · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 06:47pm

chuckfan1,

Without searching for or citing the rule (which I know I should)I've got an out for R3 on the appeal. Unless I missed something, why would the coach be looking for a tag anyway? Your scenario was bases loaded, so its a force out.

IG3

Rich Ives · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 07:39pm

It wasn't a force out. R3 was entitled to advance to home without liability to be put out due to the bases loaded walk. If a runner overruns an awarded base he has to be tagged.

For plays at home - see 7.08(k)

k) In running or sliding for home base, he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his hand, while touching home base, and appeals to the umpire for the decision.
This rule applies only where runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase him. It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, runner must be tagged.

IveGot3rd · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 08:01pm

Oops, thanks Rich. Swing & miss in my first post. I'm glad it's only February.

IG3

jicecone · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 09:08pm

Rich, explain to me in rule book terms why this was NOT a force out. I 'm not convinced. Were the runners not forced to advance to the next base because the batter received a "Base on balls"? Is 7.08k applicable then? I'm not saying your wrong, you just have not convinced me , your right.

Rich, I am basing my info upon Section 32, pg 30, The 2005 BRD 2005, "Awards To: Runner: Forced To Advance Following: Base on Balls".The Section has to deal with a force runner having to touch bases on a "base on balls", In Fed and NCAA all runners missing a base are subject to appeal on all bases, and if successful the game would continue. In OBR only R3 and R! must touch. But in ALL cases, the implication that the runners were FORCED on an award to the batter for a Base on balls, still exists.

Unless I am missing something here?

[Edited by jicecone on Feb 13th, 2005 at 09:37 PM]

DG · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 13, 2005, 09:28pm

It's not a force out, it's an appeal play, for missing a base. This is a last time by situation. The runner acquired home base when he passed it, thus removing the force. He can be called out for missing the base, on appeal. 7.08k requires him to be tagged if he is making an immediate effort to return to home to correct his miss.

mbyron · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 06:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by DG
It's not a force out, it's an appeal play, for missing a base. This is a last time by situation. The runner acquired home base when he passed it, thus removing the force. He can be called out for missing the base, on appeal. 7.08k requires him to be tagged if he is making an immediate effort to return to home to correct his miss.

Right, and from the original sitch, it sounds as if he was NOT making an immediate effort to return to the base. He was nearly in the dugout, and he turned around only because he (or a teammate) saw the defense initiate an appeal. As I read 7.08k, he's out on appeal when a defensive player in possession of the ball steps on HP -- no need to tag R3.

Rich Ives · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 08:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by mbyron

Quote:

Originally posted by DG
It's not a force out, it's an appeal play, for missing a base. This is a last time by situation. The runner acquired home base when he passed it, thus removing the force. He can be called out for missing the base, on appeal. 7.08k requires him to be tagged if he is making an immediate effort to return to home to correct his miss.

Right, and from the original sitch, it sounds as if he was NOT making an immediate effort to return to the base. He was nearly in the dugout, and he turned around only because he (or a teammate) saw the defense initiate an appeal. As I read 7.08k, he's out on appeal when a defensive player in possession of the ball steps on HP -- no need to tag R3.

Original sitch: "F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home."

The runner was in the immediate vicinity of the plate attempting to return. Tag required.

mbyron · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 09:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Ives

Original sitch: "F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home."

The runner was in the immediate vicinity of the plate attempting to return. Tag required.

No. Read the previous sentences of the original sitch: "R3 comes in, but misses home plate by about two feet, fair territory, continuing on towards his 1st base dugout. Starts high-fiving teammates, etc. Does not get all the way to the dugout."

Clearly, this does NOT count as "immediate effort" to return to the plate. He did something else: high-fiving teammates! The appeal was slow enough to allow R3 to run back towards the plate, but his rush at that point doesn't change the ruling. Tagging the plate is sufficient for the appeal.

Contrast: R3 comes in, takes 2 steps past the plate, realizes he might have missed it, and returns to touch. THEN he has to be tagged.

ozzy6900 · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 09:45am

You guys are just mincing words here and it is begining to smell!

Rich Ives gave you the answer to the situation that was posted. It is not a force out, it is forced action. You are getting hung up on words here. R3 must abandon 3rd base because of forced action of a bases loaded walk. His obligation is to touch the next base (home plate in this instance). If he fails in his duty, the defense can appeal by tagging R3 or with the ball in hand, touching home plate. It is a simple call!

mbyron · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 08:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ozzy6900
You guys are just mincing words here and it is begining to smell!

Rich Ives gave you the answer to the situation that was posted. It is not a force out, it is forced action. You are getting hung up on words here. R3 must abandon 3rd base because of forced action of a bases loaded walk. His obligation is to touch the next base (home plate in this instance). If he fails in his duty, the defense can appeal by tagging R3 or with the ball in hand, touching home plate. It is a simple call!

Give me a break. It's not "mincing words" to distinguish two different cases. The original post asked whether R3 had to be tagged, and the general answer is: "it depends," not "no" as your post would have it. Rich gave the wrong answer for the situation, but at least he knows the general answer.

Delaware Blue · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 08:40pm

The original post stated:

F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.

Sounds to me as if R3 was attempting to return and touch home just before F2 stepped on the plate. From that description, I agree with Mr. Ives. A tag is required.

Rich Ives · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mbyron

Quote:

Originally posted by ozzy6900
You guys are just mincing words here and it is begining to smell!

Rich Ives gave you the answer to the situation that was posted. It is not a force out, it is forced action. You are getting hung up on words here. R3 must abandon 3rd base because of forced action of a bases loaded walk. His obligation is to touch the next base (home plate in this instance). If he fails in his duty, the defense can appeal by tagging R3 or with the ball in hand, touching home plate. It is a simple call!

Give me a break. It's not "mincing words" to distinguish two different cases. The original post asked whether R3 had to be tagged, and the general answer is: "it depends," not "no" as your post would have it. Rich gave the wrong answer for the situation, but at least he knows the general answer.

Go to the book or my post above and read the rule again.

The key words are

he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to the base

As described, he was attempting to return so the "hold the ball on the plate" part does not apply. A tag is required.

DG · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Delaware Blue
The original post stated:

F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.

Sounds to me as if R3 was attempting to return and touch home just before F2 stepped on the plate. From that description, I agree with Mr. Ives. A tag is required.

J/R refers to "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" action. For relaxed action the base may be tagged, for unrelaxed action the runner must be tagged. An unrelaxed action runner is trying to scramble back to a base missed. A relaxed action runner is well removed from the base. For this case it appears the runner was not scrambling, he was walking away from the plate and therefore relaxed. Think of it like this, for plays at the plate, the runners slides, misses the plate, is still in the dirt and is scrambling back to the plate. Tag him. If the runner is walking towards the dugout as if he thinks he touched the plate he is not scrambling, so tag the plate and appeal to the umpire.

Rich Ives · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 14, 2005, 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DG

Quote:

Originally posted by Delaware Blue
The original post stated:

F1 throws to F2, who now steps on the plate, just ahead of the now conscious R3. R3 only tried to return to touch home, when alerted to the fact he missed home.

Sounds to me as if R3 was attempting to return and touch home just before F2 stepped on the plate. From that description, I agree with Mr. Ives. A tag is required.

J/R refers to "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" action. For relaxed action the base may be tagged, for unrelaxed action the runner must be tagged. An unrelaxed action runner is trying to scramble back to a base missed. A relaxed action runner is well removed from the base. For this case it appears the runner was not scrambling, he was walking away from the plate and therefore relaxed. Think of it like this, for plays at the plate, the runners slides, misses the plate, is still in the dirt and is scrambling back to the plate. Tag him. If the runner is walking towards the dugout as if he thinks he touched the plate he is not scrambling, so tag the plate and appeal to the umpire.

He wasn't walking away. He was scrambling back. In fact, the throw arrived "just ahead of the now conscious R3" because he now knew he hadn't touched.