Joyce misses one

[KMBReferee]

I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Don't pay any attention to Finnerty. All he does is rip on MLB umpires every time he gets a chance.

Hell, he doesn't even know the proper positioning on a play like the one being discussed.

I suspect he is a rat in sheep's clothing.

And you're little more than a blind apologist and cheap shot artist.

More nice work.

[johnnyg08]

Watch the replay again...in slow motion if you can...Joyce was going to bang him out.

I just watched the replay again on Baseball Tonight...he was going to punch him out.

To decrease the drama...yes, I agree with Mr. Joyce that he missed the call. Just for discussion...anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

[Nevadaref]

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Watch the replay again...in slow motion if you can...Joyce was going to bang him out.

I just watched the replay again on Baseball Tonight...he was going to punch him out.

To decrease the drama...yes, I agree with Mr. Joyce that he missed the call. Just for discussion...anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

I don't see that from Joyce, but I do see a really interesting reaction from the Cleveland player after being called safe.

[johnnyg08]

If you watch it he was getting ready to punch him. Obviously it doesn't matter, but he was going to punch him...watch his hands.

[umpjim]

U1 was ready to call the out until the firstbaseman under threw the ball and made the F1 hestitate. The ump blew the call because the the firstbaseman didn't shuffle the ball and lead the pitcher. Once you have got to watch a lot of things (that means more than one) you might miss something. It's all on 1B who ragged on the ump the most. He knew he FU'd the play. The ump blew it but the 1B throw made it all possible. That's a routine out when done properly but it's on 1B. They know we are human so when a close one goes against them when they did not do it right it's on them. eg: the ball beats the runner and if the tag goes to the bag you got an out but what does the fielder tag, the hip. What u got? OR, Instant replay.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

Yep - pretty clear to me too

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

In baseball we do not reverse a judgement call our partner made. We only offer our opinion to our partner if specifically asked. The umpire who made the original call can then choose to change the call based on the new information he has.

I don't like to say "never," but I simply can't imagine a professional crew getting together on a play like this. There are very rare times when the 1BU might ask the PU for help on a play at 1B but this play was not one of them. This is going to be the 1BU's call all the way and he is not going to change it.

[Nevadaref]

This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

[grunewar]

Leyland said the umpire's call was part of the "human element of the game" and did not think it constituted a case for the use of replay.

"I'm sure somebody is going to say, 'if we had replay on that play, that kid would have a perfect game.' Somebody will say something about that, but not me," Leyland said. "That's the human element. Umpires do a great job. There's no question about that. They're a whole lot right more than they are wrong. They make some unbelievable calls on bang-bang plays."

Entire article is at:

Missed call leaves Detroit's Armando Galarraga one out shy of perfect game - Daily Pitch: MLB News, Standings, Schedules & More - USATODAY.com

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

Never gonna happen....

It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket.

You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you.

You just live or die with the call.

It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

Then he should find a new line of work other than professional sports.
Mistakes haunt people all the time. Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith, Leon Lett.
Along with that fat paycheck comes some additional scrutiny should you be unfortunate or incompetent enough to make a highly visible mistake in a highly publicized situation.

[BK47]

and whats even worse is JJ made it all about him by saying "Thats the worst call of MY career".

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

Well, first off, he'd likely lose his job... and second, it would be protestable. MLB rules are very clear about what's allowed and what's not. This would be no different than an umpire going to ask a fan what they saw and changing his call accordingly.