HR, batter misses 1st

[orioles35]

I actually had one of these happen to me for a change.

Two outs, team at bat only has eight players so the #9 batter is an automatic out. #8 is at the plate and hits a HR, then misses first. I see it, BU sees it, the defensive team sees it.

I conduct business as usual, watch the runners touch bases, the defense leaves the field for the 3rd out, I walk over to the fence and get a drink, then stand on the foul line while they discuss what they're going to do. No one asks me anything this whole time, but the defense knew the batter missed first. They decide not to appeal because "it wouldn't matter, the next batter was out anyway".

Other than another coach not knowing the rules (no run can score on a batter retired before reaching 1st base), but at what point could they have made an appeal, since it cannot be made after the first pitch to the next batter...but the next batter was an automatic out?

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by orioles35

I actually had one of these happen to me for a change.

Two outs, team at bat only has eight players so the #9 batter is an automatic out. #8 is at the plate and hits a HR, then misses first. I see it, BU sees it, the defensive team sees it.

I conduct business as usual, watch the runners touch bases, the defense leaves the field for the 3rd out, I walk over to the fence and get a drink, then stand on the foul line while they discuss what they're going to do. No one asks me anything this whole time, but the defense knew the batter missed first. They decide not to appeal because "it wouldn't matter, the next batter was out anyway".

Other than another coach not knowing the rules (no run can score on a batter retired before reaching 1st base), but at what point could they have made an appeal, since it cannot be made after the first pitch to the next batter...but the next batter was an automatic out?

orioles35,

Well, it kind of depends a little bit on the rule code (and, for the life of me, I can't figure out which rule code THIS game was played under!), the defense generally can appeal a baserunning infraction as long as the defensive infielders (including the pitcher) have not ALL left fair territory.

If I were the defensive manager, I wouldn't hesitate to appeal THIS one at all!

JM

[LDUB]

Also in Federation play the defense has until the umpires leave the field to appeal on a game ending play.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Also in Federation play the defense has until the umpires leave the field to appeal on a game ending play.

Luke:

Wasn't there a FED case play recently that had the winning run scoring on a bases loaded homerun where a runner missed a base regardless of a proper appeal?


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Luke:

Wasn't there a FED case play recently that had the winning run scoring on a bases loaded homerun where a runner missed a base regardless of a proper appeal?


Tim.

I'm not Luke, but I think the play you are thinking of had BR pass R1 after BR touched first. So, the third out was not a "force", and the other runs were allowed to score.

In the original play, an appeal is allowed until the next pitch, defense-initiated play, IBB, defense leaves field (FED rules). "Another out" or "another batter" or a "declared out for empty line-up spot" has no bearing.

[SanDiegoSteve]

In the original play, wouldn't this just qualify as an adventageous 4th out by appeal if they made a proper appeal before the defense left the field?

[mcrowder]

No, because the actual 3rd out came on the "next play" during the "next batter". The HR play was over and done.

As a matter of course, if you have an automatic out, be sure not to call it too early (especially in cases like this one). Wait until action has stopped and it is obvious there is no further action from the defense (such as an appeal). I even take the extra step of separating the plays by walking over to the scorekeeper after I decide the play is over (even if he/she had been yelling, "That's 3, blue, automatic out is next!"), confirming the 3rd out, and then announcing it.

Once you announce the player out for not batting, anything that happened on the previous play is moot (BOO, missed base, etc). In effect, allow time for the missing batter to come to bat before calling that batter out.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

In the original play, wouldn't this just qualify as an adventageous 4th out by appeal if they made a proper appeal before the defense left the field?

No this is not an advantageous 4th out appeal situation.

If the defense appealed properly, Batter number 8 would have been declared out for out number 3. The invisable man would then lead off the next inning which would have meant that the defense would only have to get 2 outs because out number 1 would be an automatic out.

An advantageous 4th out appeal is as follows:

R3 2 outs. B1 hits a gapper, misses first on his way to second and is thrown out. We now have 3 outs. The defense properly appeals B1 missing first. The appeal is upheld and the run nullified.

In the thread given there wasn't a 4th out appeal because at the time there were only 2 outs not 3 outs. The invisable man became the 3rd out.

The defense should have properly appealed because not only would they have saved a run, they would get an automatic out to start the next inning.

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Pete and mcrowder,

I'm sorry for not being clear in my question. What I had meant was if a proper appeal was made immediately following the missed base and before the announcement of the automatic out was officially made. In my haste to ask the question, I misspoke by saying before the defense left the field, while in my mind picturing the immediate appeal. After all, it really wouldn't make sense after the 3rd out had been called on the missing batter to even try to appeal.

[bob jenkins]

I think Steve raises an interesting question --

Play: Bases loaded, two outs. B6 hits a double, scoring three runs, but misses first on his way to second. B7 enters the batters box with an illegal bat, or is an illegal sub, or steps from one batters box to the next while the pitcher is in a position ready to pitch. The umpire (properly) declares B7 out for the third out. Now the defense appeals B6 missing first. Is this an advantageous fourth out?

The time frame for an appeal still seems to be valid. And the offense messed up (twice) -- so under the philosphy of screw those who screwed up ...

[mcrowder]

No, Bob. Once the next batter is called out, the previous play is over, and the appeal is no longer allowed.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No, Bob. Once the next batter is called out, the previous play is over, and the appeal is no longer allowed.

So a smart coach could quickly send his next batter up to the plate with the steel rod they use to hit plastic golf balls in pregame in order to get the out prior to the appeal and save 3 runs.

I'm with Bob on this one.
This is a classic example of the rules not being able to fairly address every situation.
A good dose of common sense can generally save the day.

[mcrowder]

No, NIUmp - perhaps you didn't read my post about halfway up.

This is another GREAT example of why you make sure all potential plays are completed before letting the next guy come up. The batter with the steel pipe is not going to be allowed into the batters box (and then called out) until it is apparent the defense is ready to move on from the previous play.

Extend your sitch a little further, but using your ruling... What if there was only ONE out - a player misses a base, the next batter comes in illegally and is called out, and NOW you're going to allow an appeal play on the previous play - potentially a 3rd out when there was no chance of getting a 3rd out at all prior to the NEXT batter coming in for his at bat. No ... you can't do that.

[NIump50]

I thought your previous post was specifically speaking to the next batter being an automatic out. sorry.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No, NIUmp - perhaps you didn't read my post about halfway up.

This is another GREAT example of why you make sure all potential plays are completed before letting the next guy come up. The batter with the steel pipe is not going to be allowed into the batters box (and then called out) until it is apparent the defense is ready to move on from the previous play..

Previous play as Bob described, but play ends with a dead ball.
2 man crew
PU does not know BR missed first. Only BU.
Next batter steps in, again according to Bob's situation, let's say with an obviously illegal bat. PU rings him up. Defense intended to appeal when play resumed.
Now what?
If PU does not know there is an appeal forthcoming he won't know to delay his out call for an illegal bat.
If you don't rule according to Bob's apparent way of thinking you've just given a huge advantage to the team that screwed up twice. And screwed the team that did absolutely nothing wrong.
Again I'll reiterate.
Classic case of rules not being able to fairly adapt to all situations.
Common sense is needed.

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Extend your sitch a little further, but using your ruling... What if there was only ONE out - a player misses a base, the next batter comes in illegally and is called out, and NOW you're going to allow an appeal play on the previous play - potentially a 3rd out when there was no chance of getting a 3rd out at all prior to the NEXT batter coming in for his at bat. No ... you can't do that.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.
one out
BR misses base-potential 2nd out
Illegal batter-3rd out.

potentially a 3rd out when there was no chance of getting a 3rd out at all prior to the NEXT batter coming in for his at bat.

help me understand why there is no chance of getting a third out.

[mcrowder]

OK, I'll explain that last part a little better.

Bases loaded, 1 out. Home run over the fence, but BR misses 1st base. Everyone enters the dugout. PU gives the new ball to F2, who throws to F1. F1 is ready to pitch, and the next batter comes to the plate with a steel pipe as a bat. PU rings up the batter for the illegal bat. 2 outs. NOW you want to allow defense to appeal at 1st base for the 3rd out (which, now being the 3rd out would nullify all 4 runs, when only a 2nd out was available to them)? Surely you see the inequity in that situation, yet this is exactly what you were proposing to do earlier - allowing an appeal after a subsequent batter was called out for something he did during his at bat.

To answer your other question, if the defense wanted to appeal, there is no conceivable reason for them to get set, wait for the next batter to get in the box, and then appeal. Even if PU didn't know an appeal was pending, he must make sure all previous play is finished before allowing a new batter to come to the plate.

I admit this gets tricky in the levels/rulesets that require a live ball for an appeal - but a good umpire is aware of his surroundings. Usually, even if PU didn't see the missed base, players/coaches/fans all over are hollering about the missed base. But these two cases illustrate why it's imperative for there to be a separation of sorts between a subsequent play (be it a batter called out for not being present, or a batter called out for an illegal bat, etc.)

I suppose if an umpire was having an off-day and flubbed this (either the pipe bat or the out for the missing player) by ringing up a batter prior to a possible appeal, the appeal out needs to be rung up before any future outs (illegal bat, missing player, etc) with respect to figuring out whether runs score on the previous play.