Ejection

[just another ref]

Yesterday, local quarterfinal playoff game. Home leading by 2. Bottom of the 6th, 2 out. Little chopper to 2b. Easy play, but pretty close. Now comes the fun part. There was contact between the runner and the first baseman. I didn't see the play enough to describe in detail, but the guy next to me said the runner actually initiated the exchange with a little swipe/poke at the 1B's midsection. 1B retaliated with, judging by the ump's demonstration to the coach, what could be described as a forearm shiver. This looked even worse because the 1B was a head taller and considerably heavier than the runner. Ump, without hesitation, pointed and signaled gone. Bad situation any way you look at it, but made even worse by the fact that the ejected player was the cleanup hitter, who we are told had 17 homers to his credit, and was due up 3rd in the top of the 7th. A near riot ensued with at least one visiting fan being removed from the premises, followed by a second call for the plate ump to have some more sent away from the fence because they were "harassing my man at first." I can't say the call was right or wrong, but I can say it was huge. What are the written guidelines, and what is the thought process for some of you on an ejection in this situation? The punishment seemed harsh for the crime in my opinion. It wasn't a punch. Nobody got knocked to the ground. The whole exchange took a fraction of a second. As I picture it, if this took place during a dead ball in a basketball game, it would not have been worthy of a whistle. Step between. "Take it easy guys." It's over.

No surprise, there is a guy posting on a local site about crooked umpires, letting the kids decide the game, etc. I don't even know where the ump in question is from, but I don't believe for a second that it was remotely a factor.

Thanks in advance for opinions.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yesterday, local quarterfinal playoff game. Home leading by 2. Bottom of the 6th, 2 out. Little chopper to 2b. Easy play, but pretty close. Now comes the fun part. There was contact between the runner and the first baseman. I didn't see the play enough to describe in detail, but the guy next to me said the runner actually initiated the exchange with a little swipe/poke at the 1B's midsection. 1B retaliated with, judging by the ump's demonstration to the coach, what could be described as a forearm shiver. This looked even worse because the 1B was a head taller and considerably heavier than the runner. Ump, without hesitation, pointed and signaled gone. Bad situation any way you look at it, but made even worse by the fact that the ejected player was the cleanup hitter, who we are told had 17 homers to his credit, and was due up 3rd in the top of the 7th. A near riot ensued with at least one visiting fan being removed from the premises, followed by a second call for the plate ump to have some more sent away from the fence because they were "harassing my man at first." I can't say the call was right or wrong, but I can say it was huge. What are the written guidelines, and what is the thought process for some of you on an ejection in this situation? The punishment seemed harsh for the crime in my opinion. It wasn't a punch. Nobody got knocked to the ground. The whole exchange took a fraction of a second. As I picture it, if this took place during a dead ball in a basketball game, it would not have been worthy of a whistle. Step between. "Take it easy guys." It's over.

No surprise, there is a guy posting on a local site about crooked umpires, letting the kids decide the game, etc. I don't even know where the ump in question is from, but I don't believe for a second that it was remotely a factor.

Thanks in advance for opinions.

Just Another Ref:

I see a discussion of this play going in two parallel paths: (1) The BU did not see B/R poke F3 in the ribs and (2) BU did see B/R3 poke F3 in the ribs. Your discription also does not say if there were runners on base which would dictate where the BU was at the start of the play and where he would go in order to cover the play at 1B.


Be that as it may, I would consider a forearm shiver in baseball to be malicious contact and the penalty for malicious contact is ejection. Baseball is different from basketball and if I had seen the B/R poke F3 in the ribs, I would have ejected him, a punch is a punch is a punch, and that is malicious contact. I do not think that B/R's poke to F3's ribs can not be ruled anything other than malicious contact, especially if it caused F3 to retaliate in a manner that is easily defined as malicious contact.

I do not have a problem with F3's ejection. I am concerned that the BU did not see B/R's poking F3's ribs; whether he saw it or not is a function of his position at the time of the play.

Regarding the near riot in the stands, that is not the Umpires' concern, let game management take care of the riot. Regarding the fans standing by the fence harassing the BU, who cares. I am a big boy and if I am the BU I would be ignoring them. The only time the Umpires should be concerned about the fans along the fence is if they are making threats of physical violence against the Umpires or any participants (coaches and players) in the game.


Basketball wise: A forearm shiver is always an intentional foul at the least in my opinion, and if it retaliation then you have, by defintion a fight.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Just Another Ref:

I see a discussion of this play going in two parallel paths: (1) The BU did not see B/R poke F3 in the ribs and (2) BU did see B/R3 poke F3 in the ribs. Your discription also does not say if there were runners on base which would dictate where the BU was at the start of the play and where he would go in order to cover the play at 1B.


Be that as it may, I would consider a forearm shiver in baseball to be malicious contact and the penalty for malicious contact is ejection. Baseball is different from basketball and if I had seen the B/R poke F3 in the ribs, I would have ejected him, a punch is a punch is a punch, and that is malicious contact. I do not think that B/R's poke to F3's ribs can not be ruled anything other than malicious contact, especially if it caused F3 to retaliate in a manner that is easily defined as malicious contact.

I do not have a problem with F3's ejection. I am concerned that the BU did not see B/R's poking F3's ribs; whether he saw it or not is a function of his position at the time of the play.

Regarding the near riot in the stands, that is not the Umpires' concern, let game management take care of the riot. Regarding the fans standing by the fence harassing the BU, who cares. I am a big boy and if I am the BU I would be ignoring them. The only time the Umpires should be concerned about the fans along the fence is if they are making threats of physical violence against the Umpires or any participants (coaches and players) in the game.


Basketball wise: A forearm shiver is always an intentional foul at the least in my opinion, and if it retaliation then you have, by defintion a fight.

MTD, Sr.

There were runners on 2nd and 3rd. The call was made from between 1st and 2nd. If indeed there was a poke by the B/R, I think the ump was straightlined and would not have seen it.

[mbyron]

I don't understand what happened. BR was running through the base and had time to poke F3? F3 was catching a throw from F4 and had time to react to a poke in the ribs, turn, and bump BR? When did all of this occur?

Assuming nobody ended up on his butt, I think I'd probably call time and ask them both if they'd like to be around to play in the 7th inning.

If somebody took a swing, or got knocked down, or I felt I otherwise couldn't ignore the contact, I'd penalize what I saw and only what I saw. I'm not going to make a show of it, and if I run somebody in that situation, anybody who was looking will know why.

With R2 and R3, I expect that my partner saw nothing at 1B, but if he saw something that could factor into the call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't understand what happened. BR was running through the base and had time to poke F3? F3 was catching a throw from F4 and had time to react to a poke in the ribs, turn, and bump BR? When did all of this occur?

The play was essentially over when the contact happened. The more I think of it, I'm not sure if the throw was from F4 or from the pitcher, but the catch was made with F3 leaning toward foul territory. BR passed on the inside of F3, and the contact occurred.

Assuming nobody ended up on his butt, I think I'd probably call time and ask them both if they'd like to be around to play in the 7th inning.

I guess this answers my question. I wanted to know if this is considered an all or nothing situation, or would "Calm down guys," be acceptable to most in this situation.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...there is a guy posting on a local site about... letting the kids decide the game, etc.

Always love that argument. "Sure, everyone! Me and my partner will stand over here while the players call their own balls, strikes, and outs."

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=just another ref;676191]

There was contact between the runner and the first baseman. I didn't see the play enough to describe in detail, but the guy next to me said the runner actually initiated the exchange with a little swipe/poke at the 1B's midsection. 1B retaliated with, judging by the ump's demonstration to the coach, what could be described as a forearm shiver. This looked even worse because the 1B was a head taller and considerably heavier than the runner. Ump, without hesitation, pointed and signaled gone.

You see this many times especially in football where-by the one who retaliates is the one who gets penalized.

Sounds like Neither ump saw the first incident. You said F3 was a head taller and considerably heavier. You also said R2/R3 so BU was most likely in the 'C" position during the initial play and did not see the iniital contact.

The PU would most likely be in better position to see the original contact but non-the-less when a player in baseball gives another player a forearm shiver is a form of MC and they are ejected. You cannot "let that go" A fore-arm shiver is a punch of some kind.

IMO, basketball would be the same. Once a player fore-arms another they are done for the day.

It's one thing if you can "step in the middle" before anything happens and quite another when the "deed" is already done.

Yes, the original offender gets off "scott free" this time but if that's the type of player he is it's just a matter of time before he "gets his"

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

Bad situation any way you look at it, but made even worse by the fact that the ejected player was the cleanup hitter, who we are told had 17 homers to his credit, and was due up 3rd in the top of the 7th

Just like the 17 year old kid that got tassered because he ran accross the MLB baseball field, too bad for him. A good umpire does what he has to, when he has too. I am assuming that because this was a "local quarterfinal playoff game" the the official was one of the better ones, so I 'm not questioning his call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Bad situation any way you look at it, but made even worse by the fact that the ejected player was the cleanup hitter, who we are told had 17 homers to his credit, and was due up 3rd in the top of the 7th

Just like the 17 year old kid that got tassered because he ran accross the MLB baseball field, too bad for him. A good umpire does what he has to, when he has too. I am assuming that because this was a "local quarterfinal playoff game" the the official was one of the better ones, so I 'm not questioning his call.

When I say the situation was made worse because of who the kid was, I was referring to the fan reactions which came afterward. I believe the umpire was unimpressed, and rightfully so, by who the player was.

As to the quality of the crew for the game, I'm told they were the same two guys who had called the previous game at the same school. This is unusual, is it not? In the previous game, (I wasn't there but I hear from a credible source) there was a towering shot which bounced over the fence, which apparently was obvious to a lot of people. After a significant pause, the guy made the round trip signal, which drew the "WHAT???!!!" reaction from the crowd. Plate umpire stepped out and asked if it bounced. Field umpire quickly nodded and signaled two bases.

Draw your own conclusion.

[johnnyg08]

Pretty simple to me. This sounds like a FED game based on your scenario and the ruling. Kid shoves another kid and every person in the stadium sees it, as the umpire, I'm obligated to rule on it whether is the water boy or the super star you're referring to. He should know better. Don't penalize the umpire for the kid using poor judgment. Yes, there might have been a jab that wasn't seen. Tough. What the umpire sees, is what his call is going to be. I've been around long enough now to know that when there's an ejection, somebody's going to whine. Tough...you do what you have to do as an umpire.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Assuming nobody ended up on his butt, I think I'd probably call time and ask them both if they'd like to be around to play in the 7th inning.

+1 and good response. This don't sound like much to me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As to the quality of the crew for the game, I'm told they were the same two guys who had called the previous game at the same school. This is unusual, is it not? In the previous game, (I wasn't there but I hear from a credible source) there was a towering shot which bounced over the fence, which apparently was obvious to a lot of people. After a significant pause, the guy made the round trip signal, which drew the "WHAT???!!!" reaction from the crowd. Plate umpire stepped out and asked if it bounced. Field umpire quickly nodded and signaled two bases.

Draw your own conclusion.

1) It's common here for the same crew to be assigned all games of a particular playoff series.

2) It's sometimes hard to tell whether a ball goes over the fence or bounces over the fence. The crew worked together to get the call right.

Conclusions: Fans, coaches, players are biased observers of the events. Umpires sometimes make mistakes. Life goes on.

[Arnold A.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) It's common here for the same crew to be assigned all games of a particular playoff series.

2) It's sometimes hard to tell whether a ball goes over the fence or bounces over the fence. The crew worked together to get the call right.

Conclusions: Fans, coaches, players are biased observers of the events. Umpires sometimes make mistakes. Life goes on.

Very well put ! And, correct.

[JRutledge]

Sounds like a good ejection to me. It is common that umpires/officials see the retaliation. That is why you do not overreact when something happens to you.

The kid decided that he did not want to play when he gave a forearm shiver.

And like Bob said, who cares about what the fans or observers think.

Peace

[DG]

[QUOTE=bob jenkins;676343]1)It's sometimes hard to tell whether a ball goes over the fence or bounces over the fence.[QUOTE]Had one last week at a field that has nothing but trees beyond the fence, and a low fence. If not for the yellow tubing on the top of the fence it would be impossible. So late in the game, after an obstruction call the defensive coach could not comprehend, a high fly ball is hit out into left center, and me, thinking I saw it land over the fence and then bounce high, and after F8 did not raise his hands over his head like they usually do (sometimes they will help you make the call), signal HR. F8 had run right up to within 10 feet of the fence when it went over. HC goes nuts, fans go nuts, everyone screaming that it bounced over. HC hollers out to his F8 by name, "DID IT BOUNCE OVER THE FENCE?", to which he hollered back "NOOOOOOO". I just grinned, because up until then I was certain the call was correct, but reaction by fans and HC had me wondering if I blew one.