Must the Runner Clearly beat the ball to the bag???

[pastordoug]

Clearly this is a "myth" however I enjoy when a "new" coach wants me to explain why his player is out when it was a tie!!! :

In FED the rule I would use if questioned, usually by coach who doesn't know the rules, is 8-1 note at end: "entitled to first base only if he reaches it before being tagged out or thrown out".

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

Clearly this is a "myth" however I enjoy when a "new" coach wants me to explain why his player is out when it was a tie!!! :

In FED the rule I would use if questioned, usually by coach who doesn't know the rules, is 8-1 note at end: "entitled to first base only if he reaches it before being tagged out or thrown out".

pastordoug,

The LAST thing you want to do is make this a "rules issue".

The proper response is, "Jim, I had him out/safe" (as the case may be).

JM

P.S. There ARE no "ties".

[ManInBlue]

I agree with JM, a simple "he didn't beat the ball to the bag" or "I have him out" will suffice.

The "there is no tie" is in reference to how to rule on the play. It's not a "rookie" thing. I challenge anyone to find the rule that states that "the tie goes to the runner." You won't, because there "are no ties." Rules state clearly that a runner is out if he, or the bag, is tagged prior to him reaching the base. If they "tie," the base was not tagged prior to him reaching it(or he didn't reach the base PRIOR to it being tagged - depending on if you want the out or not)

We just have to rule - out/safe - period based on what we saw as I stated originally.

Skarecrow, please squash the "tie goes to the runner" myth!!

[kylejt]

Guys, I'm not talking about what you tell a coach. Or, what you teach when you stand up in front of 40 other guys at the start of a season. And I'm not talking about bang-bang.

I'm talking about POW! (Do we not talk about flipping the switch in public?)

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I agree with JM, a simple "he didn't beat the ball to the bag" or "I have him out" will suffice.

The "there is no tie" is in reference to how to rule on the play. It's not a "rookie" thing. I challenge anyone to find the rule that states that "the tie goes to the runner." You won't, because there "are no ties." Rules state clearly that a runner is out if he, or the bag, is tagged prior to him reaching the base. If they "tie," the base was not tagged prior to him reaching it(or he didn't reach the base PRIOR to it being tagged - depending on if you want the out or not)

We just have to rule - out/safe - period based on what we saw as I stated originally.

Skarecrow, please squash the "tie goes to the runner" myth!!

Yeah, I do...I have NEVER called the "tie" safe....Definitely out in my book! I just thought the rule stated "must clearly beat the ball to the bag," but I couldn't find it....Your comment about him not reaching the bag before it was tagged is the proper explanation that I will use....comes close enough to what I was looking for.

Thanks for all the responses....

[mbyron]

The problem is that OBR contains two contrary statements. One is 6.05(j):

"A batter is out when...After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, [the batter] or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

By this test, the ball must beat the runner, so a "tie" would go to the runner.

The other is 7.01 (already quoted by dash, above)

"7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out."

By this test, the runner must beat the ball, so a "tie" would result in an out.

This is one of the 237 problems with OBR. By tradition, at every level the test implied in 7.01 is employed on the field: the runner must beat the ball.

FED rules do not contain the contraries: see 8-4-2(j).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The problem is that OBR contains two contrary statements. One is 6.05(j):

"A batter is out when...After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, [the batter] or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

By this test, the ball must beat the runner, so a "tie" would go to the runner.

The other is 7.01 (already quoted by dash, above)

"7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out."

By this test, the runner must beat the ball, so a "tie" would result in an out.

This is one of the 237 problems with OBR. By tradition, at every level the test implied in 7.01 is employed on the field: the runner must beat the ball.

FED rules do not contain the contraries: see 8-4-2(j).

I've never understood why UMPIRES really care about this. I mean, this is how it goes:

Me: He's out.

(Coach paddles out to me.)

Coach: Why is he out?

Me: Cause he is.

Coach: Wasn't it a tie?

Me: (Silence.)

Coach: Well?

Me: He's out, let's go.

...

I mean, I'm certainly not going to get into a game of him trying to trip me up. And I will continue to call every single play that's too close to be discerned by the naked eye as an out, as I have the last 20 or so years. And no, I will never get help from a partner, so don't bother asking.

Life goes on.

[AAUA96]

My first year as an umpire I asked a coach "Are you questioning my judgment?" He replied "Yes" so I ejected him. 13 years later, my group still laughs at me about the situation - and it comes up in our new umpire class every year to ensure each umpire in our group gets to laugh with (at) me.
I am proud to have provided a leaning experience in my area.

I've never asked a coach that question again - and probably never will.

Walt

[pastordoug]

Even on those bang bang plays in mlb, i have yet to see a "tie" when they are played on slow-motion replay..... Runner either beats the throw or the throw beats him....... Nothing else......

There are no ties and no rule to support that. Although it has made for a rather lengthy post that once again shows the langauge of the FED book could be improved on.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The problem is that OBR contains two contrary statements. One is 6.05(j):

"A batter is out when...After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, [the batter] or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

By this test, the ball must beat the runner, so a "tie" would go to the runner.

The other is 7.01 (already quoted by dash, above)

"7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out."

By this test, the runner must beat the ball, so a "tie" would result in an out.

This is one of the 237 problems with OBR. By tradition, at every level the test implied in 7.01 is employed on the field: the runner must beat the ball.

FED rules do not contain the contraries: see 8-4-2(j).

7.08 (e) "Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner." supports 7.01, although it does not include the batter/runner.

Therefore, by rule, tie goes to the fielder, except for the batter/runner at first base.

Right.

[jicecone]

"Tie goes to the umpire", his butt is out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

7.08 (e) "Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner." supports 7.01, although it does not include the batter/runner.

Therefore, by rule, tie goes to the fielder, except for the batter/runner at first base.

Right.

I agree that 7.08 fits with 7.01. They're both inconsistent with 6.05(j), which I've suggested is disregarded in practice. To conclude that "by rule" the situation is clear is to deny the existence of 6.05.

As I read them, 7.08 and 7.01 are more general than 6.05, since they pertain to all runners, not just the batter-runner.

[jicecone]

There is no "tie" in baseball. Just like "No Crying."

The runner, by rule, either beats the ball to the bag or doesn't.

Thats the rule, thats the mechanic and there is no need to have a seminar, symposium, guest speaker, advanced mechanics course or 7 page thread to explain it.

Period

[hootrgibson]

If it's a tie, call him out, it makes the game go quicker....

Just like Crying, there is no "tieing" in Baseball....

[ozzy6900]

I like Rich's description of a typical incident but I answer differently:

Me: He's out.

(Coach paddles out to me.)

Coach: Why is he out?

Me: Cause he is.

Coach: Wasn't it a tie?

Me: In my judgement, you runner is out, now let's get on with the game.

Coach: What I am asking........

Me: Coach, I told you that in my judgement, he is out! Now, you're not arguing my judgement, are you?

The rest depends on the coach's answer. He was told "in my judgement" so that in itself is a "warning". He was asked if he is arguing my judgement, that is another "warning". Most times, they stop arguing at this point but if he argues, he is gone.