Must the Runner Clearly beat the ball to the bag???

[Skarecrow]

I have researched the rule book (can't find my case book), and can't find the wording or rule that defines "The runner (in order to be safe), must clearly beat the ball to the bag." Hence, ties do NOT go to the runner.....Am I correct in remembering the "tie to the runner rule?" Is this an old-wives' tale I am perpetuating? Bang-bang plays are out or safe....One bang (TIE) is an out...Correct??? And if so, where is the rule supporting that? Thanks for your help.....

[justanotherblue]

You're living the myth. There is no such thing as a tie in baseball when it comes to baserunning. He is either safe or out. Call what you see and hear, there is no other interp.

[pastordoug]

Clearly this is a "myth" however I enjoy when a "new" coach wants me to explain why his player is out when it was a tie!!! :

In FED the rule I would use if questioned, usually by coach who doesn't know the rules, is 8-1 note at end: "entitled to first base only if he reaches it before being tagged out or thrown out".

[dash_riprock]

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.

If it is a 'perceived' tie (i.e., I can't tell who got there first), I have an out every time.

"You're out 'til you're safe." Ken Kaiser

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by pastordoug

Clearly this is a "myth" however I enjoy when a "new" coach wants me to explain why his player is out when it was a tie!!! :

In FED the rule I would use if questioned, usually by coach who doesn't know the rules, is 8-1 note at end: "entitled to first base only if he reaches it before being tagged out or thrown out".

pastordoug,

The LAST thing you want to do is make this a "rules issue".

The proper response is, "Jim, I had him out/safe" (as the case may be).

JM

P.S. There ARE no "ties".

[kylejt]

Of course there are ties. There are situations where the human eye/brain can't possibly tell which happens first. The ol' bromide of "there are no ties" is something we tell rookie umpires to tell coaches. If you're a rookie umpire, go with it.

Is there no one here willing to teach advanced mechanics? Or is that still part of our unwritten code?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Of course there are ties. There are situations where the human eye/brain can't possibly tell which happens first. The ol' bromide of "there are no ties" is something we tell rookie umpires to tell coaches. If you're a rookie umpire, go with it.

Is there no one here willing to teach advanced mechanics? Or is that still part of our unwritten code?

Yes there are 'perceived' ties but the rules don't contemplate that situation. It's the rookie umpire that will tell the coach it was a tie, not the other way around.

[ManInBlue]

I agree with JM, a simple "he didn't beat the ball to the bag" or "I have him out" will suffice.

The "there is no tie" is in reference to how to rule on the play. It's not a "rookie" thing. I challenge anyone to find the rule that states that "the tie goes to the runner." You won't, because there "are no ties." Rules state clearly that a runner is out if he, or the bag, is tagged prior to him reaching the base. If they "tie," the base was not tagged prior to him reaching it(or he didn't reach the base PRIOR to it being tagged - depending on if you want the out or not)

We just have to rule - out/safe - period based on what we saw as I stated originally.

Skarecrow, please squash the "tie goes to the runner" myth!!

[kylejt]

Guys, I'm not talking about what you tell a coach. Or, what you teach when you stand up in front of 40 other guys at the start of a season. And I'm not talking about bang-bang.

I'm talking about POW! (Do we not talk about flipping the switch in public?)

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Is there no one here willing to teach advanced mechanics?

What is the advanced mechanic?

[kylejt]

Maybe it's like a Masonic handshake, and not intended for public consumption. I'll just let it go at that. I've not seen it discussed on any site, so I don't want to be the first.

Tie goes to the defense. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[cookie]

"...Is there no one here willing to teach advanced mechanics?...Tie goes to the defense. Yeah, that's the ticket..."

Kylejt, why so esoteric? To me, that's pretty much what Dash had alreay said (paraphrased) a few posts earlier:

"...If it is a 'perceived' tie (i.e., I can't tell who got there first), I have an out every time.

"You're out 'til you're safe." Ken Kaiser..."

I've been taught to get outs on every close play (perceived ties) at all four of the major camp experiences that I've gone through...

[Skarecrow]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I agree with JM, a simple "he didn't beat the ball to the bag" or "I have him out" will suffice.

The "there is no tie" is in reference to how to rule on the play. It's not a "rookie" thing. I challenge anyone to find the rule that states that "the tie goes to the runner." You won't, because there "are no ties." Rules state clearly that a runner is out if he, or the bag, is tagged prior to him reaching the base. If they "tie," the base was not tagged prior to him reaching it(or he didn't reach the base PRIOR to it being tagged - depending on if you want the out or not)

We just have to rule - out/safe - period based on what we saw as I stated originally.

Skarecrow, please squash the "tie goes to the runner" myth!!

Yeah, I do...I have NEVER called the "tie" safe....Definitely out in my book! I just thought the rule stated "must clearly beat the ball to the bag," but I couldn't find it....Your comment about him not reaching the bag before it was tagged is the proper explanation that I will use....comes close enough to what I was looking for.

Thanks for all the responses....

[mbyron]

The problem is that OBR contains two contrary statements. One is 6.05(j):

"A batter is out when...After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, [the batter] or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

By this test, the ball must beat the runner, so a "tie" would go to the runner.

The other is 7.01 (already quoted by dash, above)

"7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out."

By this test, the runner must beat the ball, so a "tie" would result in an out.

This is one of the 237 problems with OBR. By tradition, at every level the test implied in 7.01 is employed on the field: the runner must beat the ball.

FED rules do not contain the contraries: see 8-4-2(j).

[jicecone]

There is no "tie" in baseball. Just like "No Crying."

The runner, by rule, either beats the ball to the bag or doesn't.

Thats the rule, thats the mechanic and there is no need to have a seminar, symposium, guest speaker, advanced mechanics course or 7 page thread to explain it.

Period