Force play or time play?

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

BTW: Rita - great catch and thanks for initiating a discussion involving something other than clothing!

I thought that it was a good deal on some great shirts, and I wanted everyone to know about it. I'm sorry I didn't clear it with you, first. Please make a list of your personal standards and preferences, and I will make a better effort to avoid offending you.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

I thought that it was a good deal on some great shirts, and I wanted everyone to know about it. I'm sorry I didn't clear it with you, first. Please make a list of your personal standards and preferences, and I will make a better effort to avoid offending you.

I wasn't offended and I have no problem with your post about a great shirt deal. I was merely welcoming a discussion about baseball. Maybe you should switch to decaf.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I wasn't offended and I have no problem with your post about a great shirt deal. I was merely welcoming a discussion about baseball. Maybe you should switch to decaf.

I tried that on Thanksgiving weekend when my stepmother forced it down my throat, and I almost fell asleep behind the wheel. I'll just stop at one espresso and see how that works. ... My bad.

[greymule]

In the OP, the only possible reason the runner could be returning to 2B is that he failed to touch it and figures the defense will appeal. I would consider the tag out an obvious appeal play (like a runner obviously off a base when a line drive is caught by an infielder) and nullify the run.

Otherwise, even after the runner was put out for the third out, I would allow the appeal on the advantageous 4th out as Steve says.

The statement in the OP, "R1 never legally advanced to 2B," is wrong.

I'm not going to dig out my J/R, but I can't believe the J/R would not allow the advantageous appeal. I suspect the OP is being confused with that play where the sliding (forced) runner misses 2B but passes it and is then tagged out reaching back for the bag.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the OP, the only possible reason the runner could be returning to 2B is that he failed to touch it and figures the defense will appeal. I would consider the tag out an obvious appeal play (like a runner obviously off a base when a line drive is caught by an infielder) and nullify the run.

Otherwise, even after the runner was put out for the third out, I would allow the appeal on the advantageous 4th out as Steve says.

The statement in the OP, "R1 never legally advanced to 2B," is wrong.

I'm not going to dig out my J/R, but I can't believe the J/R would not allow the advantageous appeal. I suspect the OP is being confused with that play where the sliding (forced) runner misses 2B but passes it and is then tagged out reaching back for the bag.

According to J/R re: Missed Base Appeals:

A missed base appeal of first (rounded), second or third occurs only when action is relaxed and (a) the allegedly missed base is tagged, or (b) the suspect runner is tagged on another base.

NOTE: If a suspect runner is tagged off base, there is a play and an out, but not an appeal; a subsequent appeal of such runner's missed base is not allowed.

There are two relevant examples (edited for brevity).

1. Missed second base, not an appeal, unrelaxed action: R1, R3, two outs, hit and run. The batter singles and R1 passes, but does not touch, second base. F4 recognizes the miss as does R1, who stops his advance to third and scrambles back toward second. F4 gloves F9's throw and tags second before R1's return. Because action is unrelaxed, there is not an appeal. In regard to R3, if there is a tag of R1, there is a time play. This is not an appeal, therefore it is not a force out. An appeal of R1's initial miss of second base is not allowed (Emphasis added)

2. Missed second base, not an appeal, unrelaxed action. R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball gloved by F6, who attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of the base. The tag is missed, and R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, F6 tags him (not an appeal, not a force out) before he can return. R3 scored before the tag was applied (time play). The defense wishes to appeal that R1 missed second base (advantageous 4th out) to negate the run. The appeal is not allowed. (emphasis added)

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

According to J/R re: Missed Base Appeals:

A missed base appeal of first (rounded), second or third occurs only when action is relaxed and (a) the allegedly missed base is tagged, or (b) the suspect runner is tagged on another base.

NOTE: If a suspect runner is tagged off base, there is a play and an out, but not an appeal; a subsequent appeal of such runner's missed base is not allowed.

There are two relevant examples (edited for brevity).

1. Missed second base, not an appeal, unrelaxed action: R1, R3, two outs, hit and run. The batter singles and R1 passes, but does not touch, second base. F4 recognizes the miss as does R1, who stops his advance to third and scrambles back toward second. F4 gloves F9's throw and tags second before R1's return. Because action is unrelaxed, there is not an appeal. In regard to R3, if there is a tag of R1, there is a time play. This is not an appeal, therefore it is not a force out. An appeal of R1's initial miss of second base is not allowed (Emphasis added)

2. Missed second base, not an appeal, unrelaxed action. R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball gloved by F6, who attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of the base. The tag is missed, and R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, F6 tags him (not an appeal, not a force out) before he can return. R3 scored before the tag was applied (time play). The defense wishes to appeal that R1 missed second base (advantageous 4th out) to negate the run. The appeal is not allowed. (emphasis added)

Those are two of the most misguided rules interpretations that are out there.

J/R has taken the missed base appeal and made it more difficult than it should be. This is another instance that I disagree with their interpretation. They are applying the missed home plate requirements and applying them to the rest of the bases. If the rules makers wanted it like that, they could have made it so. There is no such thing as relaxed/unrelaxed action. If a runner misses a base and the defense proplerly appeals the missed base by tagging said base, the runner is out whether or not he was trying to get back to the missed base.

J/R has missed the boat on this and refuses to rectify their misinterpretation.

[greymule]

Thanks for the examples, dash. I remember reading the second one, but not the first. From the second example, I thought the fact that the runner was in the vicinity of the base precluded the gaining of the advantageous 4th out, but apparently the J/R interprets the first example the same way. I still don't see why the defense couldn't appeal for the advantageous fourth out.

If a runner misses a base and the defense properly appeals the missed base by tagging [it], the runner is out whether or not he was trying to get back to the missed base.

Can't fault your logic, UmpTTS43, since that's the letter of the rule book. But that's not how they call it in OBR. (Just in case anyone is interested, ASA softball does permit an immediate appeal on a missed base. Whether the runner is returning to touch or is in the vicinity is irrelevant. ASA also does not recognize relaxed versus unrelaxed action.)

[Publius]

Originally Posted by greymule

In the OP, the only possible reason the runner could be returning to 2B is that he failed to touch it and figures the defense will appeal. I would consider the tag out an obvious appeal play (like a runner obviously off a base when a line drive is caught by an infielder) and nullify the run.

I think grey's interp is what RefMag is saying. R1 stopping, returning, and being tagged "just after R2 crossed the plate" suggests to me he hadn't made a whole hell of a lot of progress toward third, so I don't see it that way.

What I was taught is you can't appeal a missed base by a runner when he is put out AT that base. That is, if R1 is tagged out beyond 2nd base and not in proximity of it (I use the cutout as a guide for "proximity"; some guys I work with and respect say even farther than that), the defense can appeal the missed base for an advantageous apparent fourth out. R1 gains 2nd base when he passes it; once he passes it, the force is removed and if he is subsequently tagged beyond the base, it's a time play. If the tag occurs not in proximity of the base, the defense can appeal the miss for a run-negating force-out. If he's tagged out AT the base (inside the cutout for me) trying to return, no appeal is allowed.

It was explained to me, "He can be out at third, then out at second to supersede it, but he can't be out twice at second. When he's out at second, he's out at second."

The rules citations in the case play say the run does not score because the third out was a force play. How the case play arrived at a force out because a runner was tagged beyond a base he had passed, but not touched, is beyond me unless they rule the tag was a proper appeal, an interpretation with which I cannot abide.

[johnnyg08]

I think what somebody else is saying is that the runner can't be out twice can he?

So you can't tag R1 out for being off of the base, and then appeal the same runner? Is that correct? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Thanks.

[UmpTTS43]

Sure he can. BR misses 1st and is tagged out at third. The first time he is out is on the tag. He is also out on appeal for missing 1st. Runner is still out, but for different reasons.