Force play or time play?

[Rita C]

Saw the following caseplay in Referee Magazine:

PLAY: With two outs, R1 on first ad R2 on second, B7 hits an apparent double. R2 touches third and heads for home as R1 misses second and heads for third. Without physically assisting R1, the third-base coach sends R1 back toward second. R1 is tagged out before getting back to second base and just after R2 had crossed the plate. RULING: No runs score. Even though R2 touched the plate before R1'a out, R1 never legally advanced to second base, the base to which he was forced. Therefore, R1's out is a force out and since it was the third out, no run can score. All codes agree. (NFHS 9-1-1 Exception B; NCAA 5-6c Exception 2; pro 7.12)

It still requires an appeal if he's on the third base side to be a force, right? Is there anything in the MLBUM about this?

Rita

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rita C

It still requires an appeal if he's on the third base side to be a force, right? Is there anything in the MLBUM about this?

Rita

I'm not sure just what you're asking.

The runner must be beyond the base to have missed it.

And of course to get an out the defense must appeal the missed base.

By rule -- and at every level -- a missed base appeal at a base to which the runner was forced remains a force play, with everything that entails. You have the citations.

[jicecone]

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

[dash_riprock]

J/R agrees with you Rita. According to that manual, the tag of R1 is not an appeal, and it is not a force, so R2 scores on the time play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm not sure just what you're asking.

The runner must be beyond the base to have missed it.

I think Rita was saying the force would be reinstated if R1 had retreated past 2nd base.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

What if R1 had continued to home and was tagged out there. Would you call that a force out?

[JJ]

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

I agree. It seems that RefMag either failed to post part of the situation, or missed the answer (neither of which is paticularly rare).

[mbyron]

Maybe the question is this: R1 is tagged while off base. If that's the only play on him, then his out is NOT a force play. In other words, if the defense merely treats him as a runner off base, tagging him by itself does not constitute a valid appeal.

If he's tagged in order the APPEAL the missed base, then his out IS a force play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Maybe the question is this: R1 is tagged while off base. If that's the only play on him, then his out is NOT a force play. In other words, if the defense merely treats him as a runner off base, tagging him by itself does not constitute a valid appeal.

Yes, that was Rita's OP question.

J/R has a nearly identical play (except with R1 & R3 instead of R1 & R2). The tag of R1 - who is returning to 2nd base to correct his baserunning error - is neither an appeal nor a force out, and it's a time play at the plate.

What I can't understand is: J/R says a subsequent appeal of R1's miss is not allowed. Why not? The tag of R1 is certainly part of the continuous action caused by and following the batted ball (how can it NOT be if there is a time play at the plate), so, according to MLBUM and everyone else, the defense does not lose it's right to appeal R1's miss.

BTW: Rita - great catch and thanks for initiating a discussion involving something other than clothing!

[SanDiegoSteve]

J/R would indeed be wrong in this case. The defense may legally appeal the missed base, which would result in an advantageous fourth out, and no runs score as the 3rd out would be the result of a force.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

BTW: Rita - great catch and thanks for initiating a discussion involving something other than clothing!

I thought that it was a good deal on some great shirts, and I wanted everyone to know about it. I'm sorry I didn't clear it with you, first. Please make a list of your personal standards and preferences, and I will make a better effort to avoid offending you.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

I thought that it was a good deal on some great shirts, and I wanted everyone to know about it. I'm sorry I didn't clear it with you, first. Please make a list of your personal standards and preferences, and I will make a better effort to avoid offending you.

I wasn't offended and I have no problem with your post about a great shirt deal. I was merely welcoming a discussion about baseball. Maybe you should switch to decaf.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I wasn't offended and I have no problem with your post about a great shirt deal. I was merely welcoming a discussion about baseball. Maybe you should switch to decaf.

I tried that on Thanksgiving weekend when my stepmother forced it down my throat, and I almost fell asleep behind the wheel. I'll just stop at one espresso and see how that works. ... My bad.

[greymule]

In the OP, the only possible reason the runner could be returning to 2B is that he failed to touch it and figures the defense will appeal. I would consider the tag out an obvious appeal play (like a runner obviously off a base when a line drive is caught by an infielder) and nullify the run.

Otherwise, even after the runner was put out for the third out, I would allow the appeal on the advantageous 4th out as Steve says.

The statement in the OP, "R1 never legally advanced to 2B," is wrong.

I'm not going to dig out my J/R, but I can't believe the J/R would not allow the advantageous appeal. I suspect the OP is being confused with that play where the sliding (forced) runner misses 2B but passes it and is then tagged out reaching back for the bag.