Force play or time play?

[Rita C]

Saw the following caseplay in Referee Magazine:

PLAY: With two outs, R1 on first ad R2 on second, B7 hits an apparent double. R2 touches third and heads for home as R1 misses second and heads for third. Without physically assisting R1, the third-base coach sends R1 back toward second. R1 is tagged out before getting back to second base and just after R2 had crossed the plate. RULING: No runs score. Even though R2 touched the plate before R1'a out, R1 never legally advanced to second base, the base to which he was forced. Therefore, R1's out is a force out and since it was the third out, no run can score. All codes agree. (NFHS 9-1-1 Exception B; NCAA 5-6c Exception 2; pro 7.12)

It still requires an appeal if he's on the third base side to be a force, right? Is there anything in the MLBUM about this?

Rita

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rita C

It still requires an appeal if he's on the third base side to be a force, right? Is there anything in the MLBUM about this?

Rita

I'm not sure just what you're asking.

The runner must be beyond the base to have missed it.

And of course to get an out the defense must appeal the missed base.

By rule -- and at every level -- a missed base appeal at a base to which the runner was forced remains a force play, with everything that entails. You have the citations.

[jicecone]

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

[dash_riprock]

J/R agrees with you Rita. According to that manual, the tag of R1 is not an appeal, and it is not a force, so R2 scores on the time play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

What if R1 had continued to home and was tagged out there. Would you call that a force out?

[JJ]

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

I agree. It seems that RefMag either failed to post part of the situation, or missed the answer (neither of which is paticularly rare).

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I'm not sure just what you're asking.

The runner must be beyond the base to have missed it.

I think Rita was saying the force would be reinstated if R1 had retreated past 2nd base.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

I think Rita was saying the force would be reinstated if R1 had retreated past 2nd base.

No, I'm saying that if he's past second, there has to be an appeal of the missed base to cancel the run.

Rita

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rita C

No, I'm saying that if he's past second, there has to be an appeal of the missed base to cancel the run.

Rita

In that case, I echo mbyron's first post.

[umpjim]

How about the appeal being obvious since R1 had attained or almost attained 3B when he ran back. A tag at this point might be equivalent to the unannounced but obvious appeal of a runner leaving early on a caught fly and being thrown out at the base he was returning to.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Rita C

No, I'm saying that if he's past second, there has to be an appeal of the missed base to cancel the run.

Rita

The 3rd out in this situation is certainly a tag play, not an appeal, and hence, a time play. What is at issue is J/R's muddy ruling that we can't have a 4th out appeal on the play. I don't see why we couldn't, their interp only makes a bit of sense if we are talking about overslide, avoiding tag action in and around a base.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Rita C

Saw the following caseplay in Referee Magazine:

PLAY: With two outs, R1 on first ad R2 on second, B7 hits an apparent double. R2 touches third and heads for home as R1 misses second and heads for third. Without physically assisting R1, the third-base coach sends R1 back toward second. R1 is tagged out before getting back to second base and just after R2 had crossed the plate. RULING: No runs score. Even though R2 touched the plate before R1'a out, R1 never legally advanced to second base, the base to which he was forced. Therefore, R1's out is a force out and since it was the third out, no run can score. All codes agree. (NFHS 9-1-1 Exception B; NCAA 5-6c Exception 2; pro 7.12)

It still requires an appeal if he's on the third base side to be a force, right? Is there anything in the MLBUM about this?

Rita

My position on this is we (umpires) always assume that the base runner has touched the base and remains that way unless legally appealed.

That being the case, in Rita's scenario (albeit Referee Magizine's scenario), R1 is caught off 2nd base and tagged for the 3rd out. The run scores unless legally appealed (advantageous 4th out). The mere placing of the tag is not the appeal because we (umpires) do not call an out for missing a base until the defense appeals. In this case, I want to hear from the defense that they are appealing R1 not touching 2nd base.