Earrings and a ponytail.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Oh, you don't know any liberals that hate the military? Maybe you need to get out more often. I'm not talking about rational, thoughtful, patriotic liberals. I know there are many. I'm talking about extremists, like the ones you are describing, only liberal extremists.

No I have never heard anyone say that hate the military other than the group I referenced. And I do not know if hate is the right word for their behavior. Just because you disagree with a policy or the leadership for a course of action, that does not mean you hate something. But for most conservatives that is hard to understand. Considering that anyone that opposed the war was considered unpatriotic and un-American.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I already said that there were extremes on both sides and that both of those extremes are dangerous.

BTW, that "religious" group you speak of must have a California branch as well, because there have been reports of this happening about a year ago here at Fort Rosecrans National Cemetary.

I am sure they were doing this all over the country. I just know that the current governor (he was the Lt. Gov at the time) spoke at an official's banquet and talked about passing this law. The law was passed a few months later. But that is the only group I know that openly talked about the military in a hateful way (at least recently). For you to say that most groups that feel that way are liberal is not only misleading, it is not true. I do not think the issues that people that blew up the Government building in Oklahoma City were liberal. Oh, you forgot that.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No I have never heard anyone say that hate the military other than the group I referenced. And I do not know if hate is the right word for their behavior. Just because you disagree with a policy or the leadership for a course of action, that does not mean you hate something. But for most conservatives that is hard to understand. Considering that anyone that opposed the war was considered unpatriotic and un-American.

Way over-simplified statement. I don't think people that are opposed to (what war?) are necessarily unpatriotic, but if they are called to war and don't go, they are very definitely chicken and don't deserve to live in this country, as millions have died to give them the freedom they are afraid to stand up for. Many died in Vietnam because of the anti-military efforts perpetrated on our own soil, by supposedly patriotic, red-blooded Americans who thwarted our military efforts, affected political decisions and swayed our military to back out of a war that WE WERE GOING TO WIN IF GIVEN THE CHANCE!

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For you to say that most groups that feel that way are liberal is not only misleading, it is not true. I do not think the issues that people that blew up the Government building in Oklahoma City were liberal. Oh, you forgot that.

Again, I'm talking about extremists, which Timoty McVeigh was. He was nota conservative or a liberal, he was a fruit cake extremist with an agenda that nowhere remotely resembles a conservative. Ultra right-wingers are as dangerous, if not more dangerous than the hate-spewing, God-hating ultra left-wingers.

You can disagree all you want, but I was in the military during Vietnam and know the score. I really didn't like getting nasty looks from all the peaceniks either, but oh well, I put up with it. All gave some. Some gave all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Way over-simplified statement. I don't think people that are opposed to (what war?) are necessarily unpatriotic, but if they are called to war and don't go, they are very definitely chicken and don't deserve to live in this country, as millions have died to give them the freedom they are afraid to stand up for. Many died in Vietnam because of the anti-military efforts perpetrated on our own soil, by supposedly patriotic, red-blooded Americans who thwarted our military efforts, affected political decisions and swayed our military to back out of a war that WE WERE GOING TO WIN IF GIVEN THE CHANCE!

If it is an over simplistic statement, it did not come from me. The past administration had several people publicly suggested the patriotism of those that opposed their policy for war. And I do not believe soldiers died in Vietnam because there were people here that opposed the war. Sorry, that is a very hollow argument. Unless there were citizens in Vietnam shooting or bombing our soldiers, that is not a very good claim.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Again, I'm talking about extremists, which Timoty McVeigh was. He was nota conservative or a liberal, he was a fruit cake extremist with an agenda that nowhere remotely resembles a conservative. Ultra right-wingers are as dangerous, if not more dangerous than the hate-spewing, God-hating ultra left-wingers.

You can disagree all you want, but I was in the military during Vietnam and know the score. I really didn't like getting nasty looks from all the peaceniks either, but oh well, I put up with it. All gave some. Some gave all.

You are right, his McVeigh's views were so not conservative, that his views were shared and expounded by people that claim to be conservative.

I get it, your claim is that only liberals are evil and anyone that is takes positions or sides with conservatism are not that way, they are just nut jobs.

Peace

[Kevin Finnerty]

Dick Cheney is indeed a conservative. And he was a draft dodger of the highest order. If being a hobo would get a deferment, he would be hopping trains the next day. He never even got far enough in the military to go AWOL.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Dick Cheney is indeed a conservative. And he was a draft dodger of the highest order. If being a hobo would get a deferment, he would be hopping trains the next day. He never even got far enough in the military to go AWOL.

Exactly. I love when conservatives throw out the anti-military crap about Democrats/liberals. It's pretty easy to just throw the Cheney thing right back at them. On top of that, a few years ago I saw a comparison of Democrat and Republican members of Congress. The Democrats made the Republicans look like Boy Scouts.

I find it funny how Cheney is lamented as not being a true conservative. That seems to happen quite a bit: Conservatives distance themselves from failed conservative leaders.

"Oh, that Bush and Cheney....they weren't conservatives!!" (Were they liberal? Because they sure weren't moderates)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I do not believe soldiers died in Vietnam because there were people here that opposed the war.

Some people may not believe in gravity either, but they will if they jump off a building to try to prove their claim. Because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. The war was prolonged due to the lack of support given to our military leaders at the time, which was largely due to the unpopularity of the "police action" in Vietnam. If our military had not been hamstrung, we would have bombed the NVC back into the stone age and been done with it. Why do you think Vietnam vets are so bitter? We could have won that war, but folks like Hanoi Jane Fonda and others like her swayed public opinion in favor of pulling out and letting the communists overrun South Vietnam. To you, this is history. To me, and many like me, it was our daily lives.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right, his McVeigh's views were so not conservative, that his views were shared and expounded by people that claim to be conservative.

I don't know any fiscal conservatives (how about Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller for example, whom I would vote for in a NY minute) who shared McVeigh's views. McVeigh and his ilk are not what is meant by conservative.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I get it, your claim is that only liberals are evil and anyone that is takes positions or sides with conservatism are not that way, they are just nut jobs.

No, you obviously don't get it. There are evil extreme left-wing nut jobs, and evil extreme right-wing nut jobs. McVeigh was an evil ultra-right wing nut job. He has no resemblence to a true conservative.

The vast majority of us are all much closer to the center, and differ only in policy and other minor difference, but we are still loyal Americans. I have many friends who are democrats. We get along great, and they are very patriotic Americans. Liberal and Conservative are not bad words until taken to the extreme in both directions.


Peace, OUT.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Some people may not believe in gravity either, but they will if they jump off a building to try to prove their claim. Because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. The war was prolonged due to the lack of support given to our military leaders at the time, which was largely due to the unpopularity of the "police action" in Vietnam. If our military had not been hamstrung, we would have bombed the NVC back into the stone age and been done with it. Why do you think Vietnam vets are so bitter? We could have won that war, but folks like Hanoi Jane Fonda and others like her swayed public opinion in favor of pulling out and letting the communists overrun South Vietnam. To you, this is history. To me, and many like me, it was our daily lives.

I love how you use a totally irrelevant issue like whether people believe in gravity to address this issue. I do not know anyone that does not believe in gravity. I guess that means you know someone that does?

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I don't know any fiscal conservatives (how about Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller for example, whom I would vote for in a NY minute) who shared McVeigh's views. McVeigh and his ilk are not what is meant by conservative.

There are more people in the conservative world that are not just fiscal. If that is the case, I am a social conservative considering that most of my views would go along with the social conservative movement, I just do not feel those things are much more things the government should not be dictating. Pat Roberson is not just a fiscal conservative, he is much more of a social conservative and guys like him helped stoke the fire of people like McVeigh and their views of the government.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, you obviously don't get it. There are evil extreme left-wing nut jobs, and evil extreme right-wing nut jobs. McVeigh was an evil ultra-right wing nut job. He has no resemblence to a true conservative.

I did not say there were not left-wing extremists. But you make it sound like to be one you have to hate the military and no one conservative feels that way at all. There are a lot of people that hate the government for a lot of reasons. And no one side has a monopoly on that feeling. But it is not inherent in liberalism to hate the military and it never has been.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The vast majority of us are all much closer to the center, and differ only in policy and other minor difference, but we are still loyal Americans. I have many friends who are democrats. We get along great, and they are very patriotic Americans. Liberal and Conservative are not bad words until taken to the extreme in both directions.


Peace, OUT.

Most people that call a side extreme are when those sides do not agree with them.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Pat Roberson is not just a fiscal conservative, he is much more of a social conservative and guys like him helped stoke the fire of people like McVeigh and their views of the government.

That is totally asinine and very insulting to me personally to smear a good man like Pat Robertson's name by saying that what he preaches fired up a sleaze bucket like McVeigh. Why don't you go look up what Pat Roberston, the 700 Club, and CBN have done for victims of natural disasters in this country. Find a group who helped out anymore during Katrina, for example. You can't. Yeah, blame the Christians for mentally deranged individuals blowing up a building. Ridiculous link.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Oh, that long list? You sure left a whole lot of democratic politicians and pundits off the list. Where is Barack? Where is Carville or Stephanopolis? Blitzer, Matthews, Olbermann? Just to name a few. I'm sure I can find a whole lot more.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

That is totally asinine and very insulting to me personally to smear a good man like Pat Robertson's name by saying that what he preaches fired up a sleaze bucket like McVeigh. Why don't you go look up what Pat Roberston, the 700 Club, and CBN have done for victims of natural disasters in this country. Find a group who helped out anymore during Katrina, for example. You can't. Yeah, blame the Christians for mentally deranged individuals blowing up a building. Ridiculous link.

For your information I am a Christian and I do not share the views of Pat Robertson or many people on the so-called religious right. And I would never say things that Robertson has said about others as he has publicly. You can be insulted all you want to be, but McVeigh and others in his movement were Christians as well. Even the Klan considers themselves a Christian organization. I am not sure why you are all of sudden offended by this connection when clearly people claim all kinds of religious affiliations and do un-Christian things.

And yes there were many groups that helped people in the Katrina situation. There were numerous groups that did so. I am not sure what that has to do with anything.

Peace