Earrings and a ponytail.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Now who is getting all huffy and puffy?

Honestly I have been to your town and it is nothing like many little towns in the Midwest. Not even close when it comes to conservatism and attitudes about differences. Then again, you have a right to your opinion. It does not change my position and the reality of the situation.

Peace

I've been to many little hick towns in the midwest, and conservatives are conservatives, regardless of their surroundings. And the reality is that San Diego is one of the biggest military cities in the United States, which makes it mighty conservative by default.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I've been to many little hick towns in the midwest, and conservatives are conservatives, regardless of their surroundings. And the reality is that San Diego is one of the biggest military cities in the United States, which makes it mighty conservative by default.

I know a lot of people in the military and they are not always that conservative. That being said I am sure you are right to some extent, but to say it is the most conservative when people in many parts of the Midwest never see anyone but them in a diversity way, I would challenge your claim on so many fronts. That all being said, wearing a ponytail for a local league is not the same as working a full college schedule as an umpire. The standards are not quite the same and I am sure many of us here are blowing out of proportion what someone looks like based on a very narrow standard. A local youth league needs a body; they are not worried about what they completely look like if they have fewer choices. I know they are not going to get a lot of top umpires or multi-sport officials that are successful as well. Sometimes they will get who they can get. This training looks like that is part of the purpose.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know a lot of people in the military and they are not always that conservative. That being said I am sure you are right to some extent, but to say it is the most conservative when people in many parts of the Midwest never see anyone but them in a diversity way, I would challenge your claim on so many fronts. That all being said, wearing a ponytail for a local league is not the same as working a full college schedule as an umpire. The standards are not quite the same and I am sure many of us here are blowing out of proportion what someone looks like based on a very narrow standard. A local youth league needs a body; they are not worried about what they completely look like if they have fewer choices. I know they are not going to get a lot of top umpires or multi-sport officials that are successful as well. Sometimes they will get who they can get. This training looks like that is part of the purpose.

Peace

First, I did not say that San Diego was the "most conservative." I did say, correctly, that it is "one of the most conservative."

Secondly, the umpire to whom I was referring is a top notch umpire who worked the highest level of baseball our association offered, which was D-1 baseball, as well as the plumb HS assignments. He is a great umpire, and his long hair in a ponytail was NEVER a concern to either the association, the assignment secretary, the CIF, or any of the HS coaches, who absolutely loved the guy.

Being bigoted against long hair went out in the 1960s. It's 2009, and people wear their hair any way they choose, and if they can umpire some baseball, and I mean really umpire it, not just be a warm body, then they should get the assignments based on merit, not their hairstyle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Being bigoted against long hair went out in the 1960s. It's 2009, and people wear their hair any way they choose, and if they can umpire some baseball, and I mean really umpire it, not just be a warm body, then they should get the assignments based on merit, not their hairstyle.

And this just shows how little value baseball has at the amateur levels. What you just said is not completely true. For one, I would never compare D1 Baseball to other sports where the officials are not only more visible, but very well known. I could not tell you most D1 Umpires if I saw them in a criminal lineup. I even worked a D1 Baseball games and I can tell you I was a warm body on many levels. This is really true when the first D1 game I worked I was called Friday to work Sunday doubleheader to end a series. I have never seen a D1 football or basketball official ever have tattoos that were easily seen or long hair. Even facial hair is frowned upon (unless you are Black, but that is another conversation) in those sports. You do not even see this at the high school level. I see baseball umpires look all kinds of ways for high school baseball and definitely youth baseball.

Do not get me wrong, there are certainly some hot spots in this country where baseball is taken very seriously and I am sure the umpires have to have a higher standard. But all I have to do is turn on the TV when youth baseball is on and I do not see this high standard of professionalism always being displayed. And certainly not to the point where a ponytail or earrings are never displayed.

Peace

[jicecone]

JW

Just as we form our opinions of officials from the first time we see them, so do we form our opinions of how threads are presented. It is quite obvious that your original presentation about generating a discussion on umpires appearance, left a lot to be desired. And I do understand how appearance plays a very big roll in officiatng.

And yes I also have many opinions.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do not get me wrong, there are certainly some hot spots in this country where baseball is taken very seriously and I am sure the umpires have to have a higher standard.

You would be hard pressed to find an area of the country who takes baseball any more seriously than they do where I live, and anywhere in the SoCal region. It's more of a religion out here, worshipped nearly year-round, when most parts of the country are in hiebernation already. We take our baseball as seriously as Texas takes their HS football. And that, brother, is very seriously indeed.

And the point is, the umpire I'm talking about didn't just "happen" to get D-1 assignments. Back in the day, being a D-1 umpire was really not that big of a deal, and nobody cared what an umpire looked like. That is a more recent phenomenon. Now it's all about how purty the umpire looks, not whether or not he can umpire a friggin' tiddlywinks contest, which is how I equate many of the D-1 umpires I've seen lately. He was assigned good games because he was a good umpire all around, and was well respected by coaches and administrators everywhere.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You would be hard pressed to find an area of the country who takes baseball any more seriously than they do where I live, and anywhere in the SoCal region. It's more of a religion out here, worshipped nearly year-round, when most parts of the country are in hiebernation already. We take our baseball as seriously as Texas takes their HS football. And that, brother, is very seriously indeed.

And the point is, the umpire I'm talking about didn't just "happen" to get D-1 assignments. Back in the day, being a D-1 umpire was really not that big of a deal, and nobody cared what an umpire looked like. That is a more recent phenomenon. Now it's all about how purty the umpire looks, not whether or not he can umpire a friggin' tiddlywinks contest, which is how I equate many of the D-1 umpires I've seen lately. He was assigned good games because he was a good umpire all around, and was well respected by coaches and administrators everywhere.

The bottom line is that somewhere is not making that big of a deal over a ponytail. And I think it really comes down to the competition for slots and in my area just to use it as an example, there are far less fewer slots in baseball than the other major sports. And if you live in a similar place I am sure there are people that will get opportunities in one place that would not get them in other places. And when it comes to baseball, there are first year umpires working varsity games and I even worked college games my first year because not everyone is available to work those games or willing to work those games.

Peace

[Tim C]

"Leverage is my favorite TV show. Let us know exactly when it's going to air. I know this week is the summer season finale."

Steve:

We wrapped the year ending episode Tuesday night. It will be braodcast in January.

Look for me at the political fund raising dinner. I have two "hero" shots.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know a lot of people in the military and they are not always that conservative. That being said I am sure you are right to some extent, but to say it is the most conservative when people in many parts of the Midwest never see anyone but them in a diversity way, I would challenge your claim on so many fronts. That all being said, wearing a ponytail for a local league is not the same as working a full college schedule as an umpire. The standards are not quite the same and I am sure many of us here are blowing out of proportion what someone looks like based on a very narrow standard. A local youth league needs a body; they are not worried about what they completely look like if they have fewer choices. I know they are not going to get a lot of top umpires or multi-sport officials that are successful as well. Sometimes they will get who they can get. This training looks like that is part of the purpose.

Peace

Having lived in a mid-market midwestern city (Des Moines) and a similarly sized military city (Colorado Springs), I can say definitively that the military city is more conservative than the midwestern city. In fact, I would be hard pressed to think of a midwest city of more than a quarter million that would be considered "conservative" by any measure (cultural, social, or political).

And while I've certainly met my share of liberal military members, the correlation between military service and conservative politics is quite strong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Having lived in a mid-market midwestern city (Des Moines) and a similarly sized military city (Colorado Springs), I can say definitively that the military city is more conservative than the midwestern city. In fact, I would be hard pressed to think of a midwest city of more than a quarter million that would be considered "conservative" by any measure (cultural, social, or political).

And while I've certainly met my share of liberal military members, the correlation between military service and conservative politics is quite strong.

I cannot speak for Colorado Springs or the make up of most of Iowa. But I can tell you that in Illinois, there are little towns that are very homogeneous and are small farm towns and these are not very diverse areas. And if you use voting and politics as a guide, these places are very conservative in their values and in the way they vote and the policies they support. Not to suggest that anyone in those communities are all the same, but when Obama was running for the Senate (he was from a Chicago district in the Illinois legislature) he had to convince people that have never voted Democrat to vote for him. And I am not talking about military bases or membership being the main base of these communities. I also know many military people that are not are racial minorities are not politically conservative, at least in the way they claim to vote or look at issues of public policy. Military service is not the overriding factor for all those that are members. Serving in the military might be a factor, but it is certainly not the factor to how conservative they might be.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot speak for Colorado Springs or the make up of most of Iowa. But I can tell you that in Illinois, there are little towns that are very homogeneous and are small farm towns and these are not very diverse areas. And if you use voting and politics as a guide, these places are very conservative in their values and in the way they vote and the policies they support. Not to suggest that anyone in those communities are all the same, but when Obama was running for the Senate (he was from a Chicago district in the Illinois legislature) he had to convince people that have never voted Democrat to vote for him. And I am not talking about military bases or membership being the main base of these communities. I also know many military people that are not are racial minorities are not politically conservative, at least in the way they claim to vote or look at issues of public policy. Military service is not the overriding factor for all those that are members. Serving in the military might be a factor, but it is certainly not the factor to how conservative they might be.

Peace

That's why I qualified by saying cities of a quarter million or more. I grew up in a small town in the middle of Iowa where the politics and social mores were very conservative. I went to college in Northwest Iowa, where the politics made my small home town look like San Francisco in comparison.

I wouldn't claim to say it's "the" factor in most cases. There are a lot of things that come into play, such as religious background, the politics of your parents, union membership, income and education level, etc.

I'm not saying there's a causal relationship between military service and conservative politics; but I am saying there's a definite correlation. I would guess there is some causal relation as well, but that's based purely on anecdotal evidence rather than statistical analysis so I won't go beyond speculation on that.

And with Obama, he benefited a great deal from some Republican scandals (at various levels of Illinois politics) shortly before and during his campaign that left him with a very politically weak opponent and a general Illini distaste for the GOP. This is not to say he wouldn't have won otherwise, I think he would have, but it woudn't have been the landslide it turned out to be.

And Steve's initial point was (unspoken as it may have been) regarding metropolitan areas. I highly doubt he was comparing the politics of San Diego to the politics of Orange City, Iowa. That would be like comparing apples to baseballs.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And Steve's initial point was (unspoken as it may have been) regarding metropolitan areas. I highly doubt he was comparing the politics of San Diego to the politics of Orange City, Iowa. That would be like comparing apples to baseballs.

Yes, you are correct. I should have phrased it "one of the most conservative large metropolitan cities." I know it doesn't compare with the redneck lifestyle and brand of conservatism over in Podunk, Iowa. We don't do lynchin's or marry our first cousins.

I was simply pointing out that San Diego is the only large city in California that boasts a conservative majority, and is reflected in our voting patterns. That is what I meant about a "sea of liberalism."

In no way did I infer or intimate that there aren't many brave, patriotic liberals. My HS assignor is a big liberal, yet was a very courageous, brave Boswain's Mate in the U.S. Navy during the Korean War. He is also one of my dear friends, who gave me my now-infamous nickname. And I wasn't always a conservative. In fact, I voted for Mondale/Ferraro in 1984. That was the last time I voted Democrat for any office higher than Dog Catcher.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes, you are correct. I should have phrased it "one of the most conservative large metropolitan cities." I know it doesn't compare with the redneck lifestyle and brand of conservatism over in Podunk, Iowa. We don't do lynchin's or marry our first cousins.

I was simply pointing out that San Diego is the only large city in California that boasts a conservative majority, and is reflected in our voting patterns. That is what I meant about a "sea of liberalism."

In no way did I infer or intimate that there aren't many brave, patriotic liberals. My HS assignor is a big liberal, yet was a very courageous, brave Boswain's Mate in the U.S. Navy during the Korean War. He is also one of my dear friends, who gave me my now-infamous nickname. And I wasn't always a conservative. In fact, I voted for Mondale/Ferraro in 1984. That was the last time I voted Democrat for any office higher than Dog Catcher.

I was 10 and working on the Mondale campaign in 1984. I voted for Bill Clinton twice and for Tom Vilsack in 1998. That was the last time for me.

And I'm offended by the Podunk comment. There were no lynchins. Cousins, OTOH.... In all seriousness, the biggest problem I saw with small towns was the general aversion to outsiders regardless of skin color or politics. I wasn't 3rd or 4th generation, so we were outsiders to that town.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's why I qualified by saying cities of a quarter million or more. I grew up in a small town in the middle of Iowa where the politics and social mores were very conservative. I went to college in Northwest Iowa, where the politics made my small home town look like San Francisco in comparison.

I wouldn't claim to say it's "the" factor in most cases. There are a lot of things that come into play, such as religious background, the politics of your parents, union membership, income and education level, etc.

Completely agreed.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not saying there's a causal relationship between military service and conservative politics; but I am saying there's a definite correlation. I would guess there is some causal relation as well, but that's based purely on anecdotal evidence rather than statistical analysis so I won't go beyond speculation on that.

Agree again. And I completely agree or have similar information based on anecdotal information.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And with Obama, he benefited a great deal from some Republican scandals (at various levels of Illinois politics) shortly before and during his campaign that left him with a very politically weak opponent and a general Illini distaste for the GOP. This is not to say he wouldn't have won otherwise, I think he would have, but it woudn't have been the landslide it turned out to be.

He did and he didn't benefit. Obviously the scandal helped, but when Carol Moseley Braun was elected Senator, she did not care many if any southern districts in Illinois and she did not need to. There are almost as many people in urban Chicago area and surrounding counties as there are in all of that outside of that region. So yes he got more votes than Moseley Braun did, but he might have won anyway if he had northern Illinois and Cook County support.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And Steve's initial point was (unspoken as it may have been) regarding metropolitan areas. I highly doubt he was comparing the politics of San Diego to the politics of Orange City, Iowa. That would be like comparing apples to baseballs.

If he wasn't, then he needed to make that much clearer. And the reason I say this, is because as an African-American that works baseball in the past in very rural and all-white communities, it is kind of a shock in some cases when I show up to work a game by the reaction. And this past year I worked the State Finals in the two smallest classes of schools and I probably could hold on one hand the number of non-white players I had through all the playoff games, including the State Finals themselves. And these were involving schools that were far from metropolitan areas or even the larger areas in the state (not in every case but by far more were in very rural areas). And I know if the reaction to me which was mostly positive was seen by those that are not used to seeing a person of my color working games very often, I can only imagine the things that might be assumed by someone that is wearing a ponytail or has certain tattoos on their arm. It is just one of those things that might not be widely accepted. Now our society is changing and many of the people are exposed to more different types of people than they ever were though media sources and especially TV. So it might not be seen the same visceral reaction, but there are still standards that exist.

Peace

[Adam]

Jeff,
I agree with you on the standards of appearance, but this is bound to vary by region. For example, SD may be more politically conservative than the rest of CA, but it's still CA and I would venture to say the standards of dress are still more casual in the business world of SD than they are in Des Moines or Minneapolis or Kansas City. The individual details of these things are going to vary widely by region.

My philosophy on the appearance thing (goatees, ponytails, etc) is that you just need to do as the Romans are doing. If your particular area doesn't give a rip, then don't worry about it. If it's a problem where you live, then I'd adhere as best as possible to the unspoken local standards. Just don't be surprised to find that the hippies in CA do it differently.