When a crew can't reach a call...

[jicecone]

Each new individual you work with, can be a new experience and sometimes you have to just go with the flow.

Probably my 4th year officiatiing I had the pleasure of working a Connie Mack game (17-18yr) with the worlds greatest umpire on this earth. He not only let me know this in our pre-game but even the coaches during the plate conference. He had my butt covered but, I had to do the plate because I was the rookie. OK He also implied that at the plate conference and stated that any discussions would be handled by him. Coaches said sure thing.

After each of the first two innings he felt it was necessary to come in and comment about my zone and mechanics because, well he was the worlds greatest. (Oh, and by the way did I tell you about the time he attented Jack Dainels Umpiring School in Florida) or (How about the time he got called to do the BIG boys but, had to turn it down because of other commitments).

Well, in the third inning there was a runner on second and 1 out. Ball is hit to shortstop and play is at first. I see the runner break for third and yell "I got three." Ball arrives to F5, runner slides and tag is made somewhere clearly above the belt, and I give my best rookie call of the game "SAFE".

Well, wouldnt you know the worlds greatest umpire decided he also had opinion about the play (Why not, he had an opinion about everything else.) and echoed a big "OUT". Then he followed it up with, "I got this call and he is out." I looked over to him and at the same time saw the HC coming out from the duggout and figured hey, I am going to let the worlds greatest umpire take care of this, and I did. Of course he had to throw out the HC when he implied that I might be the Rookie but at least I could see better than him. Oh and I also found out that he blew the call at first too but he handled explaining that away too.

So now the worlds greaest umpire got things calmed down and was ready to go. "Play", I say in my rookie voice. 2nd pitch and R1 takes off for 2nd base, Here's the pitch and the throw and PLUNK, down goes the worlds greatest umpire. He turned his back on the throw and the rookie had to finish the game by hisself.

Things pretty much went smoothly from there but, I will NEVER EVER forget working with the WORLDS GREATEST UMPIRE. (True story)

[TussAgee11]

I'll say it again a final time...

I'm not talking about the actual poaching on calls.

I'm talking about when a crew has to get together to "fix" something that got f'd up, and a decision can't be made. Not the decision on what the actual call was (that goes to the umpire that had the call), but a decision on how to fix something. The need to "fix" something should never happen if everyone is doing their job, but far too often at the amateur level with a new pard' a mechanically sound game is not possible.

Nevertheless, Bob shed light on my question, so I'll be done with it since I must not be conveying what I'm actually trying to say.

[nopachunts]

TussAgee11,

I understand what you are asking, not the solution for the examples you gave but what to do to straighten out a fubar. First, I agree with what Bob said.

None the less, here is my $.02:
My order the final decision to "fix" the fubar is:
1) the Crew Chief or UIC if there is one
2) if not, the PU with one caveat. If the PU is a first or second year rookie and the BU has more experience, go with the BU or BU with the most experience in 3 or 4 man crews. If both crew members have the same amount of experience, the PU, it comes with the territory.

When the crew makes its decision, the crew member that is know UIC will tell the HCs what the resolution is going to be.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Well, in the third inning there was a runner on second and 1 out. Ball is hit to shortstop and play is at first. I see the runner break for third and yell "I got three." Ball arrives to F5, runner slides and tag is made somewhere clearly above the belt, and I give my best rookie call of the game "SAFE".

Well, wouldnt you know the worlds greatest umpire decided he also had opinion about the play (Why not, he had an opinion about everything else.) and echoed a big "OUT". Then he followed it up with, "I got this call and he is out." I looked over to him and at the same time saw the HC coming out from the duggout and figured hey, I am going to let the worlds greatest umpire take care of this, and I did. Of course he had to throw out the HC when he implied that I might be the Rookie but at least I could see better than him. Oh and I also found out that he blew the call at first too but he handled explaining that away too.

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

[RPatrino]

Ok, what is a Ryobi chop saw? Does Honig's sell them?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

For FED in the Fairfield County region of CT, this was the first year that BU has had both plays. Previous mechanic in our assoc. was for PU to come, although I always discussed differently in pregames of games that weren't FED.

[UmpJM]

jicecone,

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

Great story, but I gotta' go with Steve. In every 2-man system I've ever seen, the call at 3B is the BU's in the sitch you described. And, I don't know what a "Ryobi chop saw" is either, but I inferred Steve was not being complimentary, and I'm with him there as well. Instant Karma can be a beautiful thing.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I'll say it again a final time...

I'm not talking about the actual poaching on calls.

I'm talking about when a crew has to get together to "fix" something that got f'd up, and a decision can't be made. Not the decision on what the actual call was (that goes to the umpire that had the call), but a decision on how to fix something. The need to "fix" something should never happen if everyone is doing their job, but far too often at the amateur level with a new pard' a mechanically sound game is not possible.

Nevertheless, Bob shed light on my question, so I'll be done with it since I must not be conveying what I'm actually trying to say.

Tuss,

I think maybe the reason you're not getting the answer to your question is because you haven't framed it properly. If I understand you correctly, your essential question is:

What do you do when the umpire(s) screw up and it creates a "situation" which, by its nature, must be "fixed" - AND the crew can't come to consensus on what the "fix" should be?

I believe the answer to your question depends on what the proximate cause of the screw-up was. Usually it's one of four things:

1. Two umpires make different calls on the same play.

2. One umpire "poaches" a call that "should" have been the other umpire's and "errs" in making it.

3. One umpire is 99.9% certain that his partner is making a material misapplication of some aspect of the rules.

4. The umpire responsible for the call does not see what he needed to in order to make the call.

How you deal with it depends on which one it is.

In #1, that"s what 9.04(c) addresses. Partners get together, try to come to a consensus "best" call/result; if they can't, UIC gets to decide, announce, & explain. (Where I come from it's the plate guy unless previously specified otherwise.)

If it's #2, my philosophy is that the "poacher" gets to deal with the mess he made. His partner should be available for a private conversation if the poacher wants to. The partner should avoid recrimination at this point in time, and just give him whatever information and advice he can about how to fix the sitch. But, it's the poachers call, he gets to decide, announce, and explain.

Should #3 occur, my philosophy is to, as discreetly as possible, get my partner's attention & have a quick, private conversation and express my concern. I would try to be "convincing", but, ultimately, it's his call.

#4 could happen for any of a number of reasons - incompetence, an umpire falls or gets run into or injured, something "weird" happens in the development of the play and he gets screened/blocked out/straight-lined, whatever. In this case, the partner should give as much information as possible and suggest the best fix. But, I believe this one too is ultimately up to the guy whose call it was if the partners can't reach concensus.

I'm not suggesting this is the "right" or "only" way to deal with these sitches, it's just how I look at it.

JM

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The guy sounds like a Ryobi chop saw, but did you pregame who had the coverage on this play? Because normally that call at 3rd belongs to the BU (using standard mechanics), unless discussed differently in the pregame.

He was too busy telling me about himself so I did what I thought was right. And your right I have done it both ways over the years and tommorrow the school of thought will say they are more correct than it has been done before, whatever. I do cover it in ALL my pregames now.

Tuss you asked what can be done?

Well it all depends on the officials. In my case, bonehead decided he was going to take over the game and that was that. whenever you get that personnality on the field, it just doesn't matter what rules, mchanics or protocol has been established, you have to keep doing your job.

If I am the veteran, I will assist my partner when he is in trouble and NOT all the time. If requested I will give him rule citations to reinforce the situation and hope that he makes a good decision. However I will not embarrass him, direct him or make his calls for him. There will be times though when the best learning curve is shutting your mouth and letting him learn the hard way.

There is NO set pattern below pro-Ball and it depends on the personailty of the team on the field. Rules and mechanics say this and that but sometimes as you know, a little authority goes to some peoples heads and resoning is not possible. You have to have a big ego to be good and competent, and yet still know how to get along with others. Not everyone can handle that evenly.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by youngump

he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if

no, he was poaching a "TIME" play

[SanDiegoSteve]

So nobody got the Ryobi chop saw reference, huh? How about a Makita drill or a Bosch router? Milwaukee Sawz-All? Screwdriver? Hammer?

[UmpJM]

SDS,

Dawn breaks over marblehead...

A "tool".

JM

[RPatrino]

Oh I get it now!! When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. BTW, how do you poach a time play?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

jicecone,



Great story, but I gotta' go with Steve. In every 2-man system I've ever seen, the call at 3B is the BU's in the sitch you described. And, I don't know what a "Ryobi chop saw" is either, but I inferred Steve was not being complimentary, and I'm with him there as well. Instant Karma can be a beautiful thing.




Tuss,

I think maybe the reason you're not getting the answer to your question is because you haven't framed it properly. If I understand you correctly, your essential question is:

What do you do when the umpire(s) screw up and it creates a "situation" which, by its nature, must be "fixed" - AND the crew can't come to consensus on what the "fix" should be?

I believe the answer to your question depends on what the proximate cause of the screw-up was. Usually it's one of four things:

1. Two umpires make different calls on the same play.

2. One umpire "poaches" a call that "should" have been the other umpire's and "errs" in making it.

3. One umpire is 99.9% certain that his partner is making a material misapplication of some aspect of the rules.

4. The umpire responsible for the call does not see what he needed to in order to make the call.

How you deal with it depends on which one it is.

In #1, that"s what 9.04(c) addresses. Partners get together, try to come to a consensus "best" call/result; if they can't, UIC gets to decide, announce, & explain. (Where I come from it's the plate guy unless previously specified otherwise.)

If it's #2, my philosophy is that the "poacher" gets to deal with the mess he made. His partner should be available for a private conversation if the poacher wants to. The partner should avoid recrimination at this point in time, and just give him whatever information and advice he can about how to fix the sitch. But, it's the poachers call, he gets to decide, announce, and explain.

Should #3 occur, my philosophy is to, as discreetly as possible, get my partner's attention & have a quick, private conversation and express my concern. I would try to be "convincing", but, ultimately, it's his call.

#4 could happen for any of a number of reasons - incompetence, an umpire falls or gets run into or injured, something "weird" happens in the development of the play and he gets screened/blocked out/straight-lined, whatever. In this case, the partner should give as much information as possible and suggest the best fix. But, I believe this one too is ultimately up to the guy whose call it was if the partners can't reach concensus.

I'm not suggesting this is the "right" or "only" way to deal with these sitches, it's just how I look at it.

JM

Thanks, this was my exact question. I did have a hard time framing it...

I agree with you on three and a half of four accounts. For the record, I was asking more about your situation 1 and 3, 2 and 4 seem pretty clear cut. As you said, 9.04 covers sit 1 - although determining UIC can sometimes be a bit tricky in amateur ball around here with politics and all, but it should be PU.

Sit 3, I just don't know if I could let my partner make a rules mistake that I knew I had right, but I guess if it is a real stalemate, you're right, nothing you can do but let him make it. I think this is what you were hinting at.

Thanks for breaking it down.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Sit 3, I just don't know if I could let my partner make a rules mistake that I knew I had right, but I guess if it is a real stalemate, you're right, nothing you can do but let him make it. I think this is what you were hinting at.

Thanks for breaking it down.

All you can do is use the phrase, "I'm 100% certain this is the rule, and I'll take the heat if I'm wrong."

Heck, if by now both manager's haven't figured out to use the phrase, "I protest" when the decision comes from the meeting, then they're partly to blame, too.

And, either way, look it up after tha game -- at least one person will learn something.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

jicecone,

Great story, but I gotta' go with Steve. In every 2-man system I've ever seen, the call at 3B is the BU's in the sitch you described. And, I don't know what a "Ryobi chop saw" is either, but I inferred Steve was not being complimentary, and I'm with him there as well. Instant Karma can be a beautiful thing.

You haven't been around long enough or worked with enough different groups..

For a while, under OBR, BU taking the second play was standard, but PU could take it under an "advanced" mechanic. Then, PU was standard, and BU was advanced. Then, it switched again. etc.

And, under FED, it did belong to BU. Although your association standardized on PU taking the call, other associations didn't -- and some had it one way and some the other.