When a crew can't reach a call...

[TussAgee11]

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

Example 1: R1, 1 out. Line drive to F4. BU has "no catch", PU comes up with "catch" () Runner is in total limbo and doesn't know what to do, F4 throws to first to double off runner. Runner advances safely to second.

BU wants a double play because it was the likely outcome had the correct call been made by the calling umpire only, PU is willing to allow the "no catch" and take some $hit for his mess-up, but thinks B/R should be put on first and R1 out. Talk for what is now becoming a long time, who is gonna give way?

Example 2:

Nobody on, screamer hit at BU's feet in A. He does his best to get a look at it, and decides FOUL. Manager comes and wants help on the play, BU feels he could have kicked it and decides for help. PU says it was inside the line. BU says okay we can go with fair (based on some prior OBR precedent at the MLB level). But BU and PU can't decide on a double or triple... and neither is willing to budge.

Example 3: Appeal play for 3rd out for R2 leaving early on a caught fly. R3 scored on the play. BU has OUT on R2, PU says nix the run. BU comes in and says "whoa now, lets talk." Both umpires feel they are 100% right, and won't budge.


--- Not interested in answers to the above examples (1 and 2 are HTBT), but how do these disputes get resolved? Obviously when the huddle breaks I'm going to go to war for OUR decision, but when you're in that huddle and you just can't agree, how do you solve it? ---

Its easy to say "the crew chief", which is most often simply PU at the amateur level. But alot veteran BU's think they should have the say before a 2nd year plate guy does, and this is where the stalemates come.

Anyone been in a situation like this?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Quick answer:

#1. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#2. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#3. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

PU should not poach BU's calls.

You go with who's call it was. UIC has nothing to do with judgment calls when he's not asked for input.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Quick answer:

#1. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#2. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#3. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

PU should not poach BU's calls.

You go with who's call it was. UIC has nothing to do with judgment calls when he's not asked for input.

When the man's right, he's right.

[TussAgee11]

Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.

And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked.

Could someone take a crack at my real question?

[johnnyg08]

there are times to ask for help and there are times to go w/ your call. BU is in A, it's his call and his job to call fair/foul. he's got to man-up and eat it if he screws up not throw his partner under the bus. your crew does not need to huddle on every close play...that's how your scenarios can be described. they can be prevented by having a thorough pre-game w/ your partner regarding who's going to make certain calls.

[johnnyg08]

BU has no business deciding if the run counts or not. each guy has to do his job.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.

And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked.

Could someone take a crack at my real question?

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

[SAump]

Mechanical Jurisdiction
PU has fair/foul, etc.
BU has re-touch, etc.

Ethical Jurisdiction
There is no I in team.
The boss is always right.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

The UIC decides which call takes precedence, based on who had the best look, and which call is likely correct (and whether it can be corrected -- in the "fair/foul" example, the ball stays foul.)

There are words to that effect in OBR -- somewhere in rule 9.

[TussAgee11]

OK, thanks Bob. Reading it now, 9.04c. And unless the league designates a UIC (like MLB does), the responsibility is PU's. So here is maybe a more focused question:

In amateur ball, how can a PU deal with a "veteran" BU who tries to take control of a decision (not a CALL, but a perhaps a rules/interp/make things right DECISION)? Has anyone had anything like this happen?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

I figured you misread... no biggie. I meant for the thread to be more philosophical anyway, these were just the best examples I could think of, when crews come together to "get it right" or try to eliminate what happened because of a crew mistake.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I figured you misread... no biggie. I meant for the thread to be more philosophical anyway, these were just the best examples I could think of, when crews come together to "get it right" or try to eliminate what happened because of a crew mistake.

But the examples you gave had nothing to do with rules interpretations, they were all about judgment calls that belong to one umpire or another. I'm not going to huddle or cuddle or whatever else they are calling it these days on a call that I'm positive that I got right, and was my call to start with. A screamer at BU's feet in A....still his call. Line drive to F4 while in the infield, still BU's call. These plays don't get a review in my games. I get the call right and don't allow for 2nd guessing. If they want to argue my call, fine. But I'm not running for help on a judgment call that belonged to me and me only.

Now if I were to totally miss making the call at all, as happened once when I was pretty new to umpiring, then fine, the other ump can step right in there. While working in A on a ball that was a close fair/foul over the base, I froze like a deer in the headlights and my partner saw this and immediately called, "Foul."

I'm not talking about unsure about a call and not making one, or totally spacing out and not making the call. I'm only talking about calls that I actually call that belong to me. Those are not up for discussion.

[RPatrino]

I think SAUmp was heading down the right track. In every situation there is an umpire that has responsiblility to make the call. However, the responsible umpire may not have the best angle or view to make the correct call, for many reasons. It is a crew responsiblility to get the call right, and if after discussion there is still a no agreement, the UIC or crew chief must make the call.

To answer Tuss's question, I have had 'veteran' partners try to poach my calls as the PU, or try to take control of the game. I simply tell them, 'thanks for the help, but let me do my job, you do your's', and that works. I have also had less experienced partners, who have mistakingly made calls that were mine. In this case I leave no doubt in anyones mind who's call it was and what the call will be.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

But the examples you gave had nothing to do with rules interpretations, they were all about judgment calls that belong to one umpire or another. I'm not going to huddle or cuddle or whatever else they are calling it these days on a call that I'm positive that I got right, and was my call to start with. A screamer at BU's feet in A....still his call. Line drive to F4 while in the infield, still BU's call. These plays don't get a review in my games. I get the call right and don't allow for 2nd guessing. If they want to argue my call, fine. But I'm not running for help on a judgment call that belonged to me and me only.

Now if I were to totally miss making the call at all, as happened once when I was pretty new to umpiring, then fine, the other ump can step right in there. While working in A on a ball that was a close fair/foul over the base, I froze like a deer in the headlights and my partner saw this and immediately called, "Foul."

I'm not talking about unsure about a call and not making one, or totally spacing out and not making the call. I'm only talking about calls that I actually call that belong to me. Those are not up for discussion.

Depends on how you read the one about the appeal. If the PU was not counting it because he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if it's because he was treating the touch as a force instead of an appeal, then it's a rules problem.
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[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Depends on how you read the one about the appeal. If the PU was not counting it because he was poaching the timing play, then sure. But if it's because he was treating the touch as a force instead of an appeal, then it's a rules problem.

That's why I didn't list #3 in my above post, it's kind of "iffy."