When a crew can't reach a call...

[TussAgee11]

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

Example 1: R1, 1 out. Line drive to F4. BU has "no catch", PU comes up with "catch" () Runner is in total limbo and doesn't know what to do, F4 throws to first to double off runner. Runner advances safely to second.

BU wants a double play because it was the likely outcome had the correct call been made by the calling umpire only, PU is willing to allow the "no catch" and take some $hit for his mess-up, but thinks B/R should be put on first and R1 out. Talk for what is now becoming a long time, who is gonna give way?

Example 2:

Nobody on, screamer hit at BU's feet in A. He does his best to get a look at it, and decides FOUL. Manager comes and wants help on the play, BU feels he could have kicked it and decides for help. PU says it was inside the line. BU says okay we can go with fair (based on some prior OBR precedent at the MLB level). But BU and PU can't decide on a double or triple... and neither is willing to budge.

Example 3: Appeal play for 3rd out for R2 leaving early on a caught fly. R3 scored on the play. BU has OUT on R2, PU says nix the run. BU comes in and says "whoa now, lets talk." Both umpires feel they are 100% right, and won't budge.


--- Not interested in answers to the above examples (1 and 2 are HTBT), but how do these disputes get resolved? Obviously when the huddle breaks I'm going to go to war for OUR decision, but when you're in that huddle and you just can't agree, how do you solve it? ---

Its easy to say "the crew chief", which is most often simply PU at the amateur level. But alot veteran BU's think they should have the say before a 2nd year plate guy does, and this is where the stalemates come.

Anyone been in a situation like this?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Quick answer:

#1. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#2. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#3. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

PU should not poach BU's calls.

You go with who's call it was. UIC has nothing to do with judgment calls when he's not asked for input.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Quick answer:

#1. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#2. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

#3. Base Umpire's call all the way. Go with that.

PU should not poach BU's calls.

You go with who's call it was. UIC has nothing to do with judgment calls when he's not asked for input.

When the man's right, he's right.

[TussAgee11]

Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.

And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked.

Could someone take a crack at my real question?

[johnnyg08]

there are times to ask for help and there are times to go w/ your call. BU is in A, it's his call and his job to call fair/foul. he's got to man-up and eat it if he screws up not throw his partner under the bus. your crew does not need to huddle on every close play...that's how your scenarios can be described. they can be prevented by having a thorough pre-game w/ your partner regarding who's going to make certain calls.

[johnnyg08]

BU has no business deciding if the run counts or not. each guy has to do his job.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Steve, as I believe I stated, I wasn't interested in explanations to the examples, I was just providing them so my real question was put in context.

And since is it BU's job to have a time play on a scoring runner? Besides the point, this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked this thread won't get hijacked.

Could someone take a crack at my real question?

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

On #3, I misread it, since it is a little complicated. I thought it meant the PU was trying to overturn the call on R2 leaving early. But since it is an appeal play, why would a preceding runner be affected? The run should count. So in all three cases, your PU is jacked up.

I figured you misread... no biggie. I meant for the thread to be more philosophical anyway, these were just the best examples I could think of, when crews come together to "get it right" or try to eliminate what happened because of a crew mistake.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

The UIC decides which call takes precedence, based on who had the best look, and which call is likely correct (and whether it can be corrected -- in the "fair/foul" example, the ball stays foul.)

There are words to that effect in OBR -- somewhere in rule 9.

[TussAgee11]

OK, thanks Bob. Reading it now, 9.04c. And unless the league designates a UIC (like MLB does), the responsibility is PU's. So here is maybe a more focused question:

In amateur ball, how can a PU deal with a "veteran" BU who tries to take control of a decision (not a CALL, but a perhaps a rules/interp/make things right DECISION)? Has anyone had anything like this happen?

[bniu]

for #2, take a page from Football's instant replay. Runner going down sideline, official whistles that he's out of bounds at the 50, turns out he wasn't. What happens? Ball's dead at the 50, once the whistle killed the play, it's not reviewable, since no matter the outcome, the ball would be dead at the 50. Same in baseball, once it's called foul, the ball's dead. Play's over, tell the coach to move on and if he won't, tell him he won't be around for the next blown call.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

Example 1: R1, 1 out. Line drive to F4. BU has "no catch", PU comes up with "catch" () Runner is in total limbo and doesn't know what to do, F4 throws to first to double off runner. Runner advances safely to second.

BU wants a double play because it was the likely outcome had the correct call been made by the calling umpire only, PU is willing to allow the "no catch" and take some $hit for his mess-up, but thinks B/R should be put on first and R1 out. Talk for what is now becoming a long time, who is gonna give way?

Ok I am "late to the party but here goes"

We have a no-catch on the field. (You said the PU conceded the no-ctach call) ok how do we 'fix"

You cannot ASSUME a DP even though it might be the likely outcome.
No matter what happens from here this crew is going to take some heat. Since we had a no catch R1 stays at second base and the BR is out or put R1 back at first and declare the BR out. In any event IMO, since we have a MAJOR screw-up on part of this umpiring crew I would NOT record 2 outs. take some heat and move on.

You cannot have a long talk and delay the game. One of the umpires needs to concede to his partner. If you have one partner who is "bullheaded" rather then have a long drawn out conversation on the field, let this "bullhead" have his say BUT on the same token when the manager comes out to question this simply say 'skip you can talk to him" that's NOT throwing your partner under the bus but, since you deferred the FINAL say to him it is HIS responsibility to now explain it WITHOUT my help.

The time for discussing issues arguing etc. is for POST game away from everybody.

Nobody on, screamer hit at BU's feet in A. He does his best to get a look at it, and decides FOUL. Manager comes and wants help on the play, BU feels he could have kicked it and decides for help. PU says it was inside the line. BU says okay we can go with fair (based on some prior OBR precedent at the MLB level). But BU and PU can't decide on a double or triple... and neither is willing to budge.

This one is easy and if you were playing by FED rules it is spelled out. But even in OBR the ball is FOUL - No need to confer. If you have to confer on this one then this crew is in really bad shape.

Example 3: Appeal play for 3rd out for R2 leaving early on a caught fly. R3 scored on the play. BU has OUT on R2, PU says nix the run. BU comes in and says "whoa now, lets talk." Both umpires feel they are 100% right, and won't budge.

With R2/R3 the PU is responsible for R3's tag up and the BU is responsible for R2's tag up. if the defense is appealing R2 this is the BU's call. Even though both umpires feel they are 100% right the call is the BU and quite frankly the BU on this type of play might have to tell the coach "skip It's MY call PERIOD" and not even entertain his partner.

FWIW if you have situations like the one you describe you better get a new partner or the game will become UGLY in a heartbeat.

Pete Booth

[dash_riprock]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;626634]

With R2/R3 the PU is responsible for R3's tag up and the BU is responsible for R2's tag up. if the defense is appealing R2 this is the BU's call. Even though both umpires feel they are 100% right the call is the BU and quite frankly the BU on this type of play might have to tell the coach "skip It's MY call PERIOD" and not even entertain his partner.
Pete Booth

I think Tuss was talking about whether to score the run, not R2's tag. This is a disagreement over the enforcement of a rule. In that case, the UIC can overrule (and the explanation to the coach is all his).