When a crew can't reach a call...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You haven't been around long enough or worked with enough different groups..

For a while, under OBR, BU taking the second play was standard, but PU could take it under an "advanced" mechanic. Then, PU was standard, and BU was advanced. Then, it switched again. etc.

And, under FED, it did belong to BU. Although your association standardized on PU taking the call, other associations didn't -- and some had it one way and some the other.

Yup. Or been with enough good umpires who have a reasonable difference of opinion on this. I work with about 4 different guys here and 2 of them with cover third as the PU and two of them leave it to the BU. It's pretty easy -- if someone is coming up to third to cover and is there, LET THEM. Cede the call. Now, with these guys, I know I can get an extra step or two towards first, cause they've already told me they got third.

With new umpires, we talk about it, but I still prepare myself to make the call and turn to make the call at third and then I steal a peek to see if the PU is up.

Personally, I think either way works, which is why they keep going back and forth and back and forth and why this year PU covering is an advanced mechanic and next year it's the standard mechanics, blah, blah.

[UmpJM]

Bob & Rich,

I've heard of the PU taking the 2nd play in the infield with an R1 or R1 & R3 - and a few of the partners I've worked with who have been around awhile like to do it that way - but I've never heard it suggested with an R2 only, like in jicecone's sitch.

But, as Bob says, I haven't been doing this very long.

JM

[Tim C]

"I've heard of the PU taking the 2nd play in the infield with an R1 or R1 & R3 - and a few of the partners I've worked with who have been around awhile like to do it that way - but I've never heard it suggested with an R2 only, like in jicecone's sitch."

I have been around awhile and I have NEVER heard of a proper taught mechanic that had PU taking the second call at third when the original runner was R2.

[UES-2]

I have been around awhile and I have NEVER heard of a proper taught mechanic that had PU taking the second call at third when the original runner was R2.

That is true. However, it has been floating around that the plate guys have nothing else to do in this play, except overthrow, to slide down and take the play @ 3rd. This should be covered in the pregame if you and your partner decide to use it.

[jicecone]

As already been implied here. This is like putting 3 Baptist in a room to discuss the interpretation of a single bible verse.

You are sure to get 8 opinions.

When this game took place I had 4 years experience and this forum didn't exist. Mechanics were something you may or may not of heard about at your local association meeting and this was for HS ball only. Summer ball was based more on your availabilty, then your ability. Probably why both the worlds greatest ump and myself were on the game to begin with. The fact that you knew what the internet was, let alone how to use it was an exception , rather than the norm. And as evidence here, 30 years later, what the mechanic really is, is ..............................? So please stop.

The point was the difficulty of a "crew reaching a call" when the personialities are not condusive to achieving the correct expected outcome.

And we wonder why some of these threads become 7 pages long.

[Tim C]

"That is true. However, it has been floating around that the plate guys have nothing else to do in this play, except overthrow, to slide down and take the play @ 3rd. This should be covered in the pregame if you and your partner decide to use it. "

Rather than quoting Jim Evans let me give you a general thought:

Umpire mechanics have been developed over decades by professionals that are well trained and take into consideration all type of issues when developing umpire processes.

Even the NFHS with their outdated mechanics had a basic philosophy (hard to change) of why they had their specific system of umpiring.

In a conversation with Evans he basically wanted to know WHY umpires working games played by non-professional players INSIST on changing systems (processes) to suit themselves. People that developed the systems know that umpire crews of 2 and 3 umpires are based on compromise.

In this instance Evans would tell you the PU should stay home and allow the BU to handle the simplicity of a maximum of two base runners whereas the PU can stay home and not be compromised by an errant throw at third and be in race-to-the-plate with the advancing runner.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And I will post about anything that I select to be involved in . . . if you don't like it don't read the thread.

[UES-2]

Rather than quoting Jim Evans let me give you a general thought:

Umpire mechanics have been developed over decades by professionals that are well trained and take into consideration all type of issues when developing umpire processes.

Even the NFHS with their outdated mechanics had a basic philosophy (hard to change) of why they had their specific system of umpiring.

In a conversation with Evans he basically wanted to know WHY umpires working games played by non-professional players INSIST on changing systems (processes) to suit themselves. People that developed the systems know that umpire crews of 2 and 3 umpires are based on compromise.

In this instance Evans would tell you the PU should stay home and allow the BU to handle the simplicity of a maximum of two base runners whereas the PU can stay home and not be compromised by an errant throw at third and be in race-to-the-plate with the advancing runner.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And I will post about anything that I select to be involved in . . . if you don't like it don't read the thread.

wo wo wo...easy shooter. I didnt say I work that mechanic. I do not. I am saying that some guys alter that play coverage. I could care less if they do as long there is 1 umpire set for the play @ 3rd. Simmer down Timmy!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I have been around awhile and I have NEVER heard of a proper taught mechanic that had PU taking the second call at third when the original runner was R2.

You haven't been around enough areas of the country, then.

R2, grounder to the left side, R2 holds until F6 throws to first, then runs. Play at first, second play back at third.

This is the pretty standard "depends on where you are and who you're working with" that determines whether the BU bounces back to third or the PU is up there to make the second call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Rather than quoting Jim Evans let me give you a general thought:

Umpire mechanics have been developed over decades by professionals that are well trained and take into consideration all type of issues when developing umpire processes.

Even the NFHS with their outdated mechanics had a basic philosophy (hard to change) of why they had their specific system of umpiring.

In a conversation with Evans he basically wanted to know WHY umpires working games played by non-professional players INSIST on changing systems (processes) to suit themselves. People that developed the systems know that umpire crews of 2 and 3 umpires are based on compromise.

In this instance Evans would tell you the PU should stay home and allow the BU to handle the simplicity of a maximum of two base runners whereas the PU can stay home and not be compromised by an errant throw at third and be in race-to-the-plate with the advancing runner.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

And I will post about anything that I select to be involved in . . . if you don't like it don't read the thread.

Evans has been training umpires for the professional game forever. So much so that he doesn't even recognize that his system isn't the be-all end-all for amateur umpires of varying quality. Of course, if you and I are working you know I'll come set, make a quality call, turn as I'm signaling, get an angle, make a great call at third, blah, blah, blah.

Smitty will make both calls on the run and miss one and be horribly out of position on the other. I'd rather let Smitty stay with the call at first and be waiting in the cutout for the play at third.

I don't have the 2-man (red book) handy, but I believe the PU taking this second play *is* the advanced mechanic (or the standard mechanic) depending on the year.

[johnnyg08]

I think Evans says that the BU takes both ends of this play. That being said, pregame about how you're going to cover the play...IMO if the play is covered, then that's your mechanic on the play. If you can agree on how to cover the play, then default to the mechanic that's trained by the professionals who do the two man system.

[UES-2]

You haven't been around enough areas of the country, then.

R2, grounder to the left side, R2 holds until F6 throws to first, then runs. Play at first, second play back at third.

This is the pretty standard "depends on where you are and who you're working with" that determines whether the BU bounces back to third or the PU is up there to make the second call.

It's ok Rich. Tim is the same guy who said awhile back that " In the 35 + years I have umpired I have never gone to the mound to break up a meeting between the pitcher and coach." Tim's ideas, in general, are old and outdated. I have talked to guys in his HS group and they say he is a pain in the a$$. I think that some of the umps on this board think Tim is the "Obama" of umpiring. He has them fooled!

[celebur]

Originally Posted by UES-2

It's ok Rich. Tim is the same guy who said awhile back that " In the 35 + years I have umpired I have never gone to the mound to break up a meeting between the pitcher and coach." Tim's ideas, in general, are old and outdated. I have talked to guys in his HS group and they say he is a pain in the a$$. I think that some of the umps on this board think Tim is the "Obama" of umpiring. He has them fooled!

Wow! Just. . .wow!

Color me cynical, but I'm not holding my breath for anything better in your next 5 posts.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by UES-2

It's ok Rich. Tim is the same guy who said awhile back that " In the 35 + years I have umpired I have never gone to the mound to break up a meeting between the pitcher and coach." Tim's ideas, in general, are old and outdated. I have talked to guys in his HS group and they say he is a pain in the a$$. I think that some of the umps on this board think Tim is the "Obama" of umpiring. He has them fooled!

Your full name, please?

Tim should be able to address you with knowledge of just who you are. Taking several shots like that with code name anonymity is sheer cowardice. Agree or disagree with the man (which I often have), but don't be such a coward.

[zm1283]

As long as nothing gets deleted, this is going to get interesting.....

[Kevin Finnerty]

Fair's fair. Tim's totally out front with who and where he is. This guy wants to pop off with his cheap shots, he can come out with who he is, or he can keep his cheap shots to himself.