When a crew can't reach a call...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So much so that he doesn't even recognize that his system isn't the be-all end-all for amateur umpires of varying quality.

I'm pretty sure he does.

[Kevin Finnerty]

The Evans manual does clearly state that with a runner at second base only, the BU has all plays at all bases except home, and the PU has touch of third, obstruction at third and coach assist call responsibilities, as well as any resultant plays at the plate due to an overthrow at third. It's the same way we were taught.

Why would we complicate things?

[TussAgee11]

While the Evans manual is the most comprehensive 2 man mechanic book out there right now, the system has been based off pro ball.

I'm not saying I disagree with what it says on this play, but at other levels in different areas, I'm not going to make a blanket statement that "just because the Evans manual says so means it must be done this way all the time".

I'm sure I could find some situation at a crappy 13 year old game that an Evans mechanic may not be the best idea. Similarly, some mechanic used by an association at a 13 year old game wouldn't have a place in a pro game.

So, when in rome...

[johnnyg08]

If you have a better idea than Jim Evans on how to cover the play, then use that. I will use Evans' method because I don't have a better idea.

[SanDiegoSteve]

This has been the mechanic for a lot longer than Evans has had a school. It has been taught for at least as long as I've been umpiring, which is 24 years.

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, I guess I don't care whose idea it is...but if Evans adopted it from whomever and teaches it in his academy...it's good enough for me.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

This has been the mechanic for a lot longer than Evans has had a school. It has been taught for at least as long as I've been umpiring, which is 24 years.

As early as 5 years ago, this (PU comes up) was being taught to new umpires here. First year it was changed was this year in our association.

I'll just continue to do what I'm taught, whatever that turns out to be.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

The Evans manual does clearly state that with a runner at second base only, the BU has all plays at all bases except home, and the PU has touch of third, obstruction at third and coach assist call responsibilities, as well as any resultant plays at the plate due to an overthrow at third. It's the same way we were taught.

Why would we complicate things?

This was my exact post with the key words highlighted.

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Yeah, I guess I don't care whose idea it is...but if Evans adopted it from whomever and teaches it in his academy...it's good enough for me.

Us, too.

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

As early as 5 years ago, this (PU comes up) was being taught to new umpires here. First year it was changed was this year in our association.

I'll just continue to do what I'm taught, whatever that turns out to be.

So, what if the batter/runner is safe at first, and there's a throw to third that gets away, who covers what, if the PU is at third and the BU is in the working area? Which runner is disregarded?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

So, what if the batter/runner is safe at first, and there's a throw to third that gets away, who covers what, if the PU is at third and the BU is in the working area? Which runner is disregarded?

You must not have read carefully...

I said that my comments were not directed at this mechanic, because I agree with BU taking both.

However, if I wanted to play devil's advocate with you (cause its so much fun), I would answer the following:

"What happens with R1, basehit, RF overthrows the play at 3rd? The same exact thing.

In the R2 sitch discussed previously, no runner is going to be disregarded as you suggested. 2 umpires, 2 runners. PU comes to the cutout for play at 3rd, then retreats to home in fair territory after the overthrow. BU takes any play on B/R."

Again, never ever in this thread did I say I agreed with PU coming up on this play. All I said was that was what was taught here until this past year, and that just because its in the Evans manual does not make it be all end all as you suggested. In fact, I believe there are a few cases where the Evans book deviates from what is taught at PBUC, but I could be wrong. Hope to find out soon enough.

[UES-2]

All the books say the baseguy has both plays. That is is how I was taught and thats is how I work. Sometimes if I notice my baseguy is older and cannot move very well I will ask him in the pregame if he wants me to cover 3rd. Most of the time they say NO.. I got it. No big deal.

Look, I have been on these boards for a long time.... under my real name. I decided to take on an alias due to the level of ball I work. Most upper level umps do not post on boards...atleast not using their real names. I would say that 85% of posters use an alias. As far as Tim C, most of the time Tim comes off brash and arrogant. He puts down people at times. So I called him out alittle...big deal. He even PMed me and wanted to know the names of the people in his HS group that think he's an a$$. He need to relax a little, IMO

[Kevin Finnerty]

If that's the truth, then I take back that coward thing. I thought you were an interloper doing a hit-and-run and I thought it was horse----.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UES-2

Look, I have been on these boards for a long time.... under my real name. I decided to take on an alias due to the level of ball I work. Most upper level umps do not post on boards...atleast not using their real names. I would say that 85% of posters use an alias. As far as Tim C, most of the time Tim comes off brash and arrogant. He puts down people at times. So I called him out alittle...big deal. He even PMed me and wanted to know the names of the people in his HS group that think he's an a$$. He need to relax a little, IMO

IMO, you need to make a choice: either stand behind your anonymity and restrict your answers to rules and mechanics questions (a perfectly legitimate choice), or identify yourself and your "silent majority" in order to obtain a shred of credibility. For all we know, you're a whiney-azzed coach just looking to dump on Tee.

Can't have it both ways, IMO.

[RPatrino]

Why would you post using an alias unless you intended only to flame someone? And I still think its a horsepucky thing to do, regardless of your reasoning.

[bniu]

for #2, take a page from Football's instant replay. Runner going down sideline, official whistles that he's out of bounds at the 50, turns out he wasn't. What happens? Ball's dead at the 50, once the whistle killed the play, it's not reviewable, since no matter the outcome, the ball would be dead at the 50. Same in baseball, once it's called foul, the ball's dead. Play's over, tell the coach to move on and if he won't, tell him he won't be around for the next blown call.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

What should a crew do when a play happens and there is adamant disagreement between umpires about what should be done?

Example 1: R1, 1 out. Line drive to F4. BU has "no catch", PU comes up with "catch" () Runner is in total limbo and doesn't know what to do, F4 throws to first to double off runner. Runner advances safely to second.

BU wants a double play because it was the likely outcome had the correct call been made by the calling umpire only, PU is willing to allow the "no catch" and take some $hit for his mess-up, but thinks B/R should be put on first and R1 out. Talk for what is now becoming a long time, who is gonna give way?

Ok I am "late to the party but here goes"

We have a no-catch on the field. (You said the PU conceded the no-ctach call) ok how do we 'fix"

You cannot ASSUME a DP even though it might be the likely outcome.
No matter what happens from here this crew is going to take some heat. Since we had a no catch R1 stays at second base and the BR is out or put R1 back at first and declare the BR out. In any event IMO, since we have a MAJOR screw-up on part of this umpiring crew I would NOT record 2 outs. take some heat and move on.

You cannot have a long talk and delay the game. One of the umpires needs to concede to his partner. If you have one partner who is "bullheaded" rather then have a long drawn out conversation on the field, let this "bullhead" have his say BUT on the same token when the manager comes out to question this simply say 'skip you can talk to him" that's NOT throwing your partner under the bus but, since you deferred the FINAL say to him it is HIS responsibility to now explain it WITHOUT my help.

The time for discussing issues arguing etc. is for POST game away from everybody.

Nobody on, screamer hit at BU's feet in A. He does his best to get a look at it, and decides FOUL. Manager comes and wants help on the play, BU feels he could have kicked it and decides for help. PU says it was inside the line. BU says okay we can go with fair (based on some prior OBR precedent at the MLB level). But BU and PU can't decide on a double or triple... and neither is willing to budge.

This one is easy and if you were playing by FED rules it is spelled out. But even in OBR the ball is FOUL - No need to confer. If you have to confer on this one then this crew is in really bad shape.

Example 3: Appeal play for 3rd out for R2 leaving early on a caught fly. R3 scored on the play. BU has OUT on R2, PU says nix the run. BU comes in and says "whoa now, lets talk." Both umpires feel they are 100% right, and won't budge.

With R2/R3 the PU is responsible for R3's tag up and the BU is responsible for R2's tag up. if the defense is appealing R2 this is the BU's call. Even though both umpires feel they are 100% right the call is the BU and quite frankly the BU on this type of play might have to tell the coach "skip It's MY call PERIOD" and not even entertain his partner.

FWIW if you have situations like the one you describe you better get a new partner or the game will become UGLY in a heartbeat.

Pete Booth