Abandonment???

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by David M

At what point do call him out for abandonment?

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

[johnnyg08]

That's just it...this is pretty much umpire judgement other than at home plate where in OBR they give the hitter the "circle" and/or must make an immediate attempt to run to 1B when he's legally able to run to 1B. This is the type of call where we make the big bucks and the 1B coach is basically worthless and then they blame the umpire(s) for calling him out for abandonment.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

That is a debatable question.

What does immediately mean to you? As soon as he stops his momentum? Halfway to his dugout? In his dugout? Is it situational?

Since it just says "immediately", it is left up to interpretation at that point. For me, I would go with him being several steps beyond 1B on his way back to his dugout. But, I would also consider the situation.

If I have the winning run on 3B, 2 outs and I know calling an out for abandonment after reaching the next base is a timing issue, I am not calling the abandonment out until R3 crosses so his run counts. I will give more leeway in this situation just to end the game and prevent extra innings.

I may get flack for this but I will be the one going home when that run crosses.

So you're saying it depends on the situation. What kind of crap is that?? Oh yeah, it's called game management *For all of you that didn't catch that, I was being sarcastic in the first two sentences*

-Josh

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, game management...where we make the big bucks!

[UmpTTS43]

A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out. Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

7.08j Any runner is out when ..... He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged. If, after overrunning or oversliding first base he starts toward the dugout, or toward his position, and fails to return to first base at once, he is out, on appeal, when he or the base is tagged;

7.08a2 PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Similar situation where BR passes 1st and stops to remove all of his batting gear. If he or the base is tagged, he is out on appeal.

Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by LMan

Ouch...bet that makes for a nice sh*tstorm.

I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

I'm sure it would be. I have never called it, but it is something in my toolbox that I have at my disposal should I ever "deem" it necessary to call it.

YGBSM.

Better leave that 'tool' in your box...

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by LMan

YGBSM.

Better leave that 'tool' in your box...

This is not a call that is voluntarily made by the umpire. The ruling is a result of the defense appealing the infraction. My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc. If this appeal ever comes up, and it never has in over 1000 games of all levels, I will make an appropriate ruling. Even though I have not had the opportunity to rule on this appeal, I know that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to handle situations that involve this particular rule. So no, I am sh*tting you and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc.

So, you plan on just making things up as you go, huh?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

ah, good, you are taking my advice, then.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

This is not a call that is voluntarily made by the umpire. The ruling is a result of the defense appealing the infraction. My ruling concerning this infraction will take into count different criteria, including whether or not it is a valid appeal, whether or not the defense is nit picking, whether or not the offense is a PITA, or as in the case of the original OP, the BR is in the process of abandoning his base, etc. If this appeal ever comes up, and it never has in over 1000 games of all levels, I will make an appropriate ruling. Even though I have not had the opportunity to rule on this appeal, I know that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to handle situations that involve this particular rule. So no, I am sh*tting you and this "tool" will remain in my toolbox.

May be using the wrong word because abandonment is not an appeal option under rule 7.10. BTW, most cases of abandonment take place in the last inning. See recent Ohio ruling in playoff game {link still available?} where B/R took part in celebration before immediately proceeding to 1B. Abandonment call overturned in interesting protest decision.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

A runner not "immediately" returning to 1st after attaining 1st is an appealable play (7.10c). If the BR is obviously heading toward his dugout, I will recognize the tag and bang him out.

What tag? An out for abandonment does not require a tag. In the OP, if F3 tags the runner, he's not far enough away to have abandoned. If that tips him off to return to 1B, we play on.

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A runner is "immediately" returning to 1B if he's not going somewhere else. No WAY I'd call a runner out for removing protective gear while off the base. That's a ticket back to the small diamond.

Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Amen, brother. How OOO would you have to be to call a runner out for taking off his gear on his way back to the base?

Interesting this would come up, I just read about it yesterday...J/R says something about the runner being able to be tagged out if he does so in front of the base.