Unusual play - Ruling/Interpretation Question

[Durham]

I think he is saying that it should be 2 bases from the time F# deflected the ball out of play the 2nd time he contacted the ball. Because it was his action that caused the ball to go out of play. If so he would be right, but that is a ****ty end of the stick.

[johnnyg08]

okay, that makes sense...

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Durham

I think he is saying that it should be 2 bases from the time F# deflected the ball out of play the 2nd time he contacted the ball. Because it was his action that caused the ball to go out of play. If so he would be right, but that is a ****ty end of the stick.

Exactly. Why is it that the [dirty] end of the stick? Would you call it differently?

[Durham]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Exactly. Why is it that the [dirty] end of the stick? Would you call it differently?

I would award 3rd if I were 110% that the B/R was past 1st when the ball was deflected. No Doubt at all.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Durham

I would award 3rd if I were 110% that the B/R was past 1st when the ball was deflected. No Doubt at all.

In that case, I'm with you 100%. Make that 110%.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by Durham

I would award 3rd if I were 110% that the B/R was past 1st when the ball was deflected. No Doubt at all.

Rules basis for that?

[Durham]

Originally Posted by celebur

Rules basis for that?

PBUC blue book and MLB manual. It has to do with the impetus of the ball. If it was going to go out on its own then it is ToP or ToT, but if the ball goes out of play because the fielder changed the impetus of the ball then it is 2 from the ToD, or the spot that the base runners were at when the fielders action took place.

Examples, ball hit to the wall, fielder reaches down and then comes up and says it went under the fence, would be 2 bases from the time he went down, throw from a fielder to the plate, ball rolls over too the dugout and is coming to a stop, but the catcher slides and his action causes the ball to go into the dugout, it would be 2 from the time of the deflection.

[dash_riprock]

J/R calls it a "subsequent push." If the fielder supplied the impetus that caused the ball to enter DBT, it's 2 from the time of the push (deflection).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Durham

Examples, ball hit to the wall, fielder reaches down and then comes up and says it went under the fence, would be 2 bases from the time he went down,

A batted ball going under the fence is 2 bases TOP - or do you mean the fielder pushed it under the fence?

[Rich Ives]

The OP has a ball in flight being deflected into DBT. What's all this subsequent push/added impetus BS.

The Canseco added impetus was a HR. If it went out in foul teritory it would be 2 bases TOP.

[Armadillo_Blue]

I agree with Rich and disagree with Dash and Durham..According to the PBUC (I don't have a MLBUM):

If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside of the foul lines the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

It goes on to say that even if the ball is not in flight it would still be time of pitch.

According to the PBUC the only instance it is time of deflection is when the act is intentional or when the fielder had complete control of the ball and then drops it and deflects it out of play. In all other instances it is time of pitch or in the case of a thrown ball, time of throw. (Except the first play by an infielder...)

[johnnyg08]

I think the deflection was a secondary action after the initial one (maybe what you're consider the Canseco one...then another deflection that went out of play...seemingly foul territory

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Armadillo_Blue

If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside of the foul lines the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

That is not a subsequent push. The momentum of the ball took it over the wall (even though it was deflected by the fielder). The fielder did not add the impetus (energy), he just deflected the ball.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The OP has a ball in flight being deflected into DBT. What's all this subsequent push/added impetus BS.

The Canseco added impetus was a HR. If it went out in foul teritory it would be 2 bases TOP.

There was no subsequent push/added impetus to the Canseco HR. Had he caught the ball and thrown it over the fence, it would be 2 from the TOT.

And if you think the subsequent push/added impetus stuff is BS, sooner or later you're going to get it wrong on the field.

[Armadillo_Blue]

Dash, that is correct for the Conseco play because he would have had control of it and deliberately thrown it into dead ball. Then the award is TOD.

Unless I am reading it wrong, the OP is a deflected ball. Granted it is deflected twice, but the ball remained in flight and the fielder was attempting to catch it not deliberately deflect it. Therefore the rule is clear that the award is time of pitch.

PBUC clearly states that time of deflection only applies if the subsequent push is intentional or happens after the fielder had complete control of the ball.