Unusual play - Ruling/Interpretation Question

[Durham]

Originally Posted by celebur

Rules basis for that?

PBUC blue book and MLB manual. It has to do with the impetus of the ball. If it was going to go out on its own then it is ToP or ToT, but if the ball goes out of play because the fielder changed the impetus of the ball then it is 2 from the ToD, or the spot that the base runners were at when the fielders action took place.

Examples, ball hit to the wall, fielder reaches down and then comes up and says it went under the fence, would be 2 bases from the time he went down, throw from a fielder to the plate, ball rolls over too the dugout and is coming to a stop, but the catcher slides and his action causes the ball to go into the dugout, it would be 2 from the time of the deflection.

[dash_riprock]

J/R calls it a "subsequent push." If the fielder supplied the impetus that caused the ball to enter DBT, it's 2 from the time of the push (deflection).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Durham

Examples, ball hit to the wall, fielder reaches down and then comes up and says it went under the fence, would be 2 bases from the time he went down,

A batted ball going under the fence is 2 bases TOP - or do you mean the fielder pushed it under the fence?

[Rich Ives]

The OP has a ball in flight being deflected into DBT. What's all this subsequent push/added impetus BS.

The Canseco added impetus was a HR. If it went out in foul teritory it would be 2 bases TOP.

[Armadillo_Blue]

I agree with Rich and disagree with Dash and Durham..According to the PBUC (I don't have a MLBUM):

If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside of the foul lines the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

It goes on to say that even if the ball is not in flight it would still be time of pitch.

According to the PBUC the only instance it is time of deflection is when the act is intentional or when the fielder had complete control of the ball and then drops it and deflects it out of play. In all other instances it is time of pitch or in the case of a thrown ball, time of throw. (Except the first play by an infielder...)

[johnnyg08]

I think the deflection was a secondary action after the initial one (maybe what you're consider the Canseco one...then another deflection that went out of play...seemingly foul territory

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Armadillo_Blue

If a fair fly ball is deflected in flight by a fielder and then goes out of play outside of the foul lines the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

That is not a subsequent push. The momentum of the ball took it over the wall (even though it was deflected by the fielder). The fielder did not add the impetus (energy), he just deflected the ball.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The OP has a ball in flight being deflected into DBT. What's all this subsequent push/added impetus BS.

The Canseco added impetus was a HR. If it went out in foul teritory it would be 2 bases TOP.

There was no subsequent push/added impetus to the Canseco HR. Had he caught the ball and thrown it over the fence, it would be 2 from the TOT.

And if you think the subsequent push/added impetus stuff is BS, sooner or later you're going to get it wrong on the field.

[Armadillo_Blue]

Dash, that is correct for the Conseco play because he would have had control of it and deliberately thrown it into dead ball. Then the award is TOD.

Unless I am reading it wrong, the OP is a deflected ball. Granted it is deflected twice, but the ball remained in flight and the fielder was attempting to catch it not deliberately deflect it. Therefore the rule is clear that the award is time of pitch.

PBUC clearly states that time of deflection only applies if the subsequent push is intentional or happens after the fielder had complete control of the ball.

[dash_riprock]

The second example given by Durham is a good one. The ball did not have enough energy to make it into the dugout. The sliding catcher added the energy necessary for the ball to reach DBT. That is why the award is 2 from the time of deflection. The catcher neither intended to deflect it, nor had any control of the ball when he deflected it.

The OP follows the same principle. The umpire must make a judgment. Did the fielder supply the energy necessary for the ball to reach DBT? If so, then it's a TOD award. If he merely redirected the kinetic energy of the ball by deflecting it, then it's a TOP award.

Whether or not the ball is in flight is irrelevant to this determination.

[Armadillo_Blue]

I still disagree and the BRD and PBUC back me up.

First of all this is a batted ball. The references I was able to find to determining if the added push by the fielder caused the ball to go out were all in reference to a pitch or a throw from the mound. (I am only using my BRD and PBUC right now.)

The BRD clearly states: If a batted or thrown ball is unintentionally deflected into dead ball territory the award is the same at all levels: two bases measured from TOP (batted ball) or TOT (thrown ball)

In a separate section Carl references the FED's ruling that the fielder's intent is not relevant, what counts is the impetus that caused the ball to go dead. This, however, is specifically referring to a pitch intentionally deflected. What FED does is reduce the award if the ball was going to go dead anyway. This still requires the act to be intentional.

In the OP the fielder was trying to catch a batted ball and unintentionally deflected it into DBT. This is a TOP award according to every reference I am looking at. If you can quote a reference that says otherwise, please let me know so I can check it out.