Unusual play and question

tnroundballref · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 02:51pm

I had an unusal play at an AAU game this past weekend. Here is the scenario : A1 was dribbling in front court and was fouled by B2.I reported the foul and asked (the 15 year old cheerleader that was keeping the book) if we were in the bonus yet, to which she said "no". So we put the ball back in play with A1 inbounding to A2 and shot a three pointer that was good. After B1 grabbed the ball but before the ball was inbounded the horn starts going off and the score keeper is beckoning me to the table. I walk over and the scorekeeper (who really should not have been put in a position to keep the book) shook as she told me she had made a mistake and that the last team B foul was actually the 7th team foul. I looked at her and grinned as I thought of how I was going to break it to the team B coach that were were not only going to award team A the three pointer, I was also going to have to give A1 the bonus free throws with all players cleared off the lane...(A1 made both free throws) but the good news was he would still get the ball back for a backcourt throw in....I tried explaining the rule (correctable error)to team B's coach to no avail, he thought I was trying to "rook" him. I listened to all I could before I had to stick team A's coach with a T. I later told my partner that I wished he had come over to help me out with team B's coach and he says "I wasn't sure if we had it right either !" . My question is, How do you guys difuse a coach in this type situation and did we get it right? I really hated to do it(stick the coach), but after hearing how terrible I was for 4 trips up and down the court after he got the ball back, I figured enough was enough....

Andy · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:13pm

Sounds like you were OK in how you handled it up to a point. Explain the ruling to the coach, let him gripe a bit, then tell him that is the ruling, we're playing ball now.

Depending on your mood at this point, you have some options:

If he is still griping, either a warning "Coach, the play is over, I don't want to hear anymore about it", then stick him if he refuses to give up.

Or after explaining the ruling he is still going, stick him now.

I definitely would not let him gripe about it for four trips up and down the floor, especially at the AAU level.

I also wanted to comment on something else in your post. You need to handle this discussion with the coach yourself. Don't call your partner over to help you. This leaves nobody watching the other players on the floor. It could also give the coach an opportunity to play you against your partner if he senses that one of you is unsure about the ruling.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:14pm

Not much you can do if the coach won't take your word that you are applying the rule correctly. Sounds like you:

1) tried to explain it,
2) then got away,
3) then let him whine a little,
4) then had enough,
5) then banged him.

I think 1-3 were handled perfectly. He got a raw deal, so let him moan about it a little. Fine. #4 happens to everybody. You reach a limit, and that's also good. You can't let him moan forever.

Once you get to 4, though, I think that you have to communicate to the coach that you've heard enough. Yes, you certainly are within the rules to stick him without warning. But in a case where it's just general whining or complaining with nothing that really goes over the line, you need to let him know that #5 is coming before you give it to him.

It's as simple as the "stop sign" gesture and "Coach, that's enough!" If he doesn't heed it, then fine, bang him. But if you really would rather diffuse it, then you need to at least try a firm "stop it".

Just my opinion. You needed to take care of business, and you did it. I have absolutely NO problem with that (especially in AAU). My only suggestion would be to give him a chance to back off the ledge before you let him jump.

Chuck

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:15pm

Jeez, Andy said everything I did and did it a minute faster. Grrrrrr.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tnroundballref
So we put the ball back in play with A1 inbounding to A2 and shot a three pointer that was good. After B1 grabbed the ball but before the ball was inbounded the horn starts going off and the score keeper is beckoning me to the table. I walk over and the scorekeeper (who really should not have been put in a position to keep the book) shook as she told me she had made a mistake and that the last team B foul was actually the 7th team foul.

As soon as B1 grabbed the ball after the made 3pointer,the ball became alive-Rule6-1-2(b). The error is no longer correctable,as per Rule2-10-2.

mdray · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:36pm

doesn't this error have to be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started? Didn't that dead ball period end when B had the ball for their throw-in? Is this still a correctable error?

tnroundballref · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:37pm

I also wanted to comment on something else in your post. You need to handle this discussion with the coach yourself. Don't call your partner over to help you. This leaves nobody watching the other players on the floor. It could also give the coach an opportunity to play you against your partner if he senses that one of you is unsure about the ruling.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Andy, thanks for the comments, I guess what I was trying to say was that I wish the other official would have taken a little heat off me. We did switch/rotate to where he was table-side closest to the coach and I was opposite (as I felt getting away from the coach would difuse the matter) after I explained the rule to him and he started getting argumenative. So I ended up busting the coach from across the floor (which I hate doing) because my partner didn't know if we had it right and felt we should just let the coach vent. I was the veteran guy...maybe I should have just stayed table side and maybe I could have given the STOP sign and maybe avoided the T.

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mdray
doesn't this error have to be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started? Didn't that dead ball period end when B had the ball for their throw-in? Is this still a correctable error?

Yes. Yes. No.

mdray · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:48pm

thanks JR...I knew the answers to my questions...just wanted TRBR to think about them and discover his partner's reluctance was well founded

Jurassic Referee · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mdray
thanks JR...I knew the answers to my questions...just wanted TRBR to think about them and discover his partner's reluctance was well founded

I figured you did.I was trying to make the same point as you-again.

tnroundballref · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 03:52pm

Jurassic- team B had not gotten out of bounds when the horn was blown - just because they grab the ball after it goes through the hoop does not make it at the disposal of the thrower...or does it?

[Edited by tnroundballref on Apr 11th, 2003 at 03:56 PM]

Jurassic Referee · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tnroundballref
Jurassic- team B had not gotten out of bounds when the horn was blown - just because they grab the ball after it goes through the hoop does not make at the disposal of the thrower...or does it?

Check out casebook play 6.1.2SitB-including the Comment. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in.Getting the ball OOB doesn't really matter to the status of the ball.

rainmaker · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 04:14pm

RndBallRef --

You don't have to take away the 3-pointer: in fact, you shouldn't! see 2-10-5. "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." Just shoot the shot or shots with the lane cleared, and then go back to the POI. P.S. This is the only POI in NFHS mechanics.

One thing I have tried a couple of times, when I was clearly at fault, that works okay if you do it right (I'm not very good at it yet, but improving), is to admit to this coach that you totally blew it, and you're sorry, but there's nothing you can do now to "fix" it. "Coach, it's my fault, I didn't check carefully with the table and now I am costing you three points. All I can do is apologize and promise it won't happen again." Then, as Chuck pointed out, you get away. Then if he still whines, give it one more try: "Coach, I goofed, I apologized, I won't do it again. Let's drop it now." Or, "Coach, I've heard enough. I goofed, I apoloziged and now it's past." Then one more word gets the T. But if you do it right, you don't ever get to the one more word part.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
[B
You don't have to take away the 3-pointer: in fact, you shouldn't! see 2-10-5. "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." Just shoot the shot or shots with the lane cleared, and then go back to the POI. P.S. This is the only POI in NFHS mechanics.

[/B]

Juulie,taking away the 3 pointer isn't really the issue.The issue is whether you CAN go back and shoot the FT's. By rule,you CAN'T because it is no longer a correctible error after the ball became alive on the throw-in following the dead ball on the made basket.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 11, 2003, 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tnroundballref
Jurassic- team B had not gotten out of bounds when the horn was blown - just because they grab the ball after it goes through the hoop does not make it at the disposal of the thrower...or does it?

You have a point. In most cases, the ball is not at the disposal of the throwing team until they have the ball OOB for the throwin. However, if the official feels they've had sufficient time to do so but are, for what ever reason, stalling, it should be considered to be at their disposal and the 5 second count started. At that instant, the defense may no longer call timeout and this correctable error would be no longer correctable.