Does the run score?

[mick]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

Well, there is certainly some agreement on that, and it seems to be common, but unwritten, knowledge.


Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

If the runnner crosses the plate is the game over ?
Do we wait to see if the batter strikes out ?

If the game is over in one case, why would it continue in another ?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

Actually this happened late in an 11-2 blowout with the winning team being the team at bat in this situation.

[PeteBooth]

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

How about the "potential winning run" and the "potential final out of the inning"?

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

Bottom of sixth, tie score, R3, 2 0ut.

PU has declared this the last inning due to darkness

R3 is winning run and B4 could be final out

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.



mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

Timed game? ...Or what Lord Byron said.

Yeah, I kicked it.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

That is the best explanation I've heard yet. I'll relay it to my association. Thanks!

[mick]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

Thanks, Pete, and I apologize for being dense.
I have to be missing something.

Are we not still going to let R1 keep 2nd base, but now with one or two outs?
The 1/2-inning continues.
In the OP the game could be over, or tied.

[UmpJM]

mick,

I believe Pete's point was that, even though the R1 was standing on 2B when the pitch reached the plate, since he had not reached 2B at the "TOP", 1B was still "occupied" by rule, and the batter did NOT become a runner on the third strike not caught.

JM

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

I believe Pete's point was that, even though the R1 was standing on 2B when the pitch reached the plate, since he had not reached 2B at the "TOP", 1B was still "occupied" by rule, and the batter did NOT become a runner on the third strike not caught.

JM

Thanks,JM.
Yet, I can find no relationship to Time of Pitch and taking a base away from a runner stealing any base, including home plate. In Pete's case the runner keeps his base. That case is exclusively applied to the batter, not to a preceding runner.
I do, however, find that a runner touching home plate before there are 3 outs is a score, and that a batter is not out until a third strike....

[PeteBooth]

Hi Mick:

How about this one

We have runners at the corners and one out.

B1 hits the ball to F6 who throws the ball to F4 and then on to F3 to complete the DP.

In the mean-time R3 already touched the plate WELL before the DP was executed.

If we go by your analysis R3's run should count becasue he scored Prior to the third out being registered.

IMO, the key is where is the runner at TOP.

Pete Booth

[mick]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Hi Mick:

How about this one

We have runners at the corners and one out.

B1 hits the ball to F6 who throws the ball to F4 and then on to F3 to complete the DP.

In the mean-time R3 already touched the plate WELL before the DP was executed.

If we go by your analysis R3's run should count becasue he scored Prior to the third out being registered.

IMO, the key is where is the runner at TOP.

Pete Booth

Aw, c'mon Pete.

[UmpJM]

mick,

The following is from the MLBUM (my emphasis):

5.7 TIME OF PITCH

The time of pitch is defined as the moment the pitcher's movements commit him to deliver the ball to the batter.

-In a windup position, this is defined as the moment the pitcher begins the natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter (i.e., the start of his windup or delivery).
- From a set position, this is defined as the moment the pitcher begins the natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball after the pitcher has come set with both hands together in front of his body.

A runner who advances while the pitcher is in contact with the rubber is considered to occupy the base last touched at the time the pitcher initiates his actual pitching motion to the batter. The pitching motion is defined as any movement that commits the pitcher to deliver the ball to the batter.

So long as the pitcher is not committed to pitch, a runner may advance and is considered to occupy the last base touched at the time the pitcher initiates his actual delivery to the batter.

So, in the OP, since the R3 had not yet touched home at the time the pitcher initiated his delivery, he "occupies" 3B at the beginning of this "play" (what J/R defines as the "continuous action" of the play).

Since the BR did not reach 1B base safely on the play, and was the 3rd out of the inning, no run can score on the play - even if a runner touches home before he is out.

Had the runner touched home prior to the pitcher initiating his delivery, then his run would score.

JM

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

The following is from the MLBUM (my emphasis):



So, in the OP, since the R3 had not yet touched home at the time the pitcher initiated his delivery, he "occupies" 3B at the beginning of this "play" (what J/R defines as the "continuous action" of the play).

Since the BR did not reach 1B base safely on the play, and was the 3rd out of the inning, no run can score on the play - even if a runner touches home before he is out.

Had the runner touched home prior to the pitcher initiating his delivery, then his run would score.

JM

JM,
Before I go on, thanks for the time you are spending on this.

Thanks for the reference from MLBUM. For me, it clearly defines Time of Pitch. But I do not think the OP is concerned with rules relating to retouches and dropped third strikes. The OP asks did the run count? Is there a section in MLBUM that answers the question of what determines a run? Below is what I found. And I still do not understand why the run by the runner stealing home, before the batter is called out on strikes, does not count.

I apologize for going my old 1995 J/R again, but it is the best source that I have.
[Please note, I do willingly concede to newer information that may be available.]

J/R - Chapter 10 Determining a run.

• A run can occur only if a runner¹ touches (or passes) each advance base².
• However, there cannot be a run if a runner has touched (or passed) home base, but there is related action wherein
  • he is out.
• • he must return to another base
  • a third out occurs before the runner touches (or passes) home; this is called a time play

i. (example of force out removed and touching home before)
ii. (example of force out removed and touching home after)
iii. (example of R2 missing third with or without appeal)

• • the third out is:

i. the batter- runner before touching (or passing) first base, or the batter-runner on an appeal for missing first, or when his batted ball is caught.
ii. another runner who is forced
iii. a leading runner on appeal. No runners following such runner can score.

• Appeal Outs, Fourth Outs, and Determining a Run.

A third out (whether a typical third out or a superceding fourth out) occurs when the action creating the third out occurs; the timing of such third out is never retroactive. Whether the out is an appeal or a regular tag, the out actually occurs at the time the tag originates, and should be seen as such in relationship to another runner’s touch of home in trying to score on a time play.

A determination of whether an out is a force out or not can be a factor in deciding if a run counts.

The third out of an inning does not prevent the defense from getting a fourth out.

A runner who touches (or passes) home with the apparent winning run does not terminate the game; a subsequent out is possible.

¹ assume runner to be not out

² a run legally scored cannot be nullified by a subsequent action of the runner (i.e., runner makes unnecessary effort to return to third base in a mistaken belief that he had failed to retouch.