Does the run score?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play.

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

[3appleshigh]

I would also say that a pitch is a Throw from one fielder to another in an attempt to get someone out. But that may be streaching it a bit.

[TwoBits]

I am on the side of those who believe the run doesn't count. However, this is the problem that is being debated in my association:

FED Rule 9-1-1 Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in whcih the third out is made as follows:
a) by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

This is also OBR Rule 4.09a Exception 1.

The "batter-runner" is defined in FED Rule 2-7-3: A batter-runner is a palyer who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends.

Batter-runner is similarly defined in OBR Rule 2.00

In this situation, remember the pitch had not yet been ruled strike three until after R3 had crossed the plate. The debate we are having is that the batter had not finished his time at bat because the pitch had not yet crossed the plate and cannot considered a batter-runner. Therefore, rules referencing batter-runner do not apply here.

[mick]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

Well, there is certainly some agreement on that, and it seems to be common, but unwritten, knowledge.


Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

If the runnner crosses the plate is the game over ?
Do we wait to see if the batter strikes out ?

If the game is over in one case, why would it continue in another ?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

Actually this happened late in an 11-2 blowout with the winning team being the team at bat in this situation.

[PeteBooth]

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

How about the "potential winning run" and the "potential final out of the inning"?

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

Bottom of sixth, tie score, R3, 2 0ut.

PU has declared this the last inning due to darkness

R3 is winning run and B4 could be final out

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.



mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

Timed game? ...Or what Lord Byron said.

Yeah, I kicked it.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

That is the best explanation I've heard yet. I'll relay it to my association. Thanks!

[mick]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

Thanks, Pete, and I apologize for being dense.
I have to be missing something.

Are we not still going to let R1 keep 2nd base, but now with one or two outs?
The 1/2-inning continues.
In the OP the game could be over, or tied.

[UmpJM]

mick,

I believe Pete's point was that, even though the R1 was standing on 2B when the pitch reached the plate, since he had not reached 2B at the "TOP", 1B was still "occupied" by rule, and the batter did NOT become a runner on the third strike not caught.

JM

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

I believe Pete's point was that, even though the R1 was standing on 2B when the pitch reached the plate, since he had not reached 2B at the "TOP", 1B was still "occupied" by rule, and the batter did NOT become a runner on the third strike not caught.

JM

Thanks,JM.
Yet, I can find no relationship to Time of Pitch and taking a base away from a runner stealing any base, including home plate. In Pete's case the runner keeps his base. That case is exclusively applied to the batter, not to a preceding runner.
I do, however, find that a runner touching home plate before there are 3 outs is a score, and that a batter is not out until a third strike....

[PeteBooth]

Hi Mick:

How about this one

We have runners at the corners and one out.

B1 hits the ball to F6 who throws the ball to F4 and then on to F3 to complete the DP.

In the mean-time R3 already touched the plate WELL before the DP was executed.

If we go by your analysis R3's run should count becasue he scored Prior to the third out being registered.

IMO, the key is where is the runner at TOP.

Pete Booth