Does the run score?

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mick,

It goes to the definiton of "a play" as used in 4.09(b)Ex.(1):



Now though the rules use "a play" in a number of different ways, the text of the rules never defines it.

In this context, the universal interpretation is that "a play" begins when the pitcher initiates his delivery. Since the BR did not reach 1B safely, and it was the 3rd out, and the runner occupied 3B when the play began, his run does not score.

Likewise, if somehow the batter had hit a fly ball (without killing the R3) instead of striking out, and the ball were caught with less than 2 outs, the runner would be under a 7.10(a) retouch obligation.

JM

Thanks, JM, but ...

From a 1995 J/R:

It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk.

I understand that MLB and Fed will vary, but a pitch being considered a play must be related only to Fed (if it really is) and not to levels above [MLB] or below [LL].

[UmpJM]

Mick,

As I said above, the phrase "a play" has a number of different meanings. The J/R discussion you cite is in reference to appeals and baserunning awards as mentioned in 7.10 and 7.05(g).

J/R uses the phrase "continuous action" (which you will find nowhere in the rule book) to define the "related action" or "play" during which a run is nullified if the BR does not reach 1B.

JM

[Mrumpiresir]

Would not the time of the pitch be a factor to be considered here? If the batter had fouled off the pitch, R3 would return to 3rd because he did not reach the plate before the TOP. So in the OP, he did not score before the TOP and the batter was retired for the third out and logically, no run scores.

[mick]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mick,

As I said above, the phrase "a play" has a number of different meanings. The J/R discussion you cite is in reference to appeals and baserunning awards as mentioned in 7.10 and 7.05(g).
...
JM

JM,
Actually the J/R quote came from the definition *pairs* [Play or No Play].
I should have noted that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mick

Thanks, JM, but ...

From a 1995 J/R:

It is a play if there is a
(1) tag or tag try of a runner
(2) tag or tag try of a base
(3) throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner
(4) rundown, or
(5) balk.

I understand that MLB and Fed will vary, but a pitch being considered a play must be related only to Fed (if it really is) and not to levels above [MLB] or below [LL].

Mick, the pitch is not the play. The play is the putout of BR.

[mick]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Mick, the pitch is not the play. The play is the putout of BR.

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mick

I can live with that.
And in the OP the runner scored before the play, while in the case given, the runner crossed during the play.

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

[3appleshigh]

I would also say that a pitch is a Throw from one fielder to another in an attempt to get someone out. But that may be streaching it a bit.

[TwoBits]

I am on the side of those who believe the run doesn't count. However, this is the problem that is being debated in my association:

FED Rule 9-1-1 Exception: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in whcih the third out is made as follows:
a) by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

This is also OBR Rule 4.09a Exception 1.

The "batter-runner" is defined in FED Rule 2-7-3: A batter-runner is a palyer who has finished a time at bat until he is put out or until playing action ends.

Batter-runner is similarly defined in OBR Rule 2.00

In this situation, remember the pitch had not yet been ruled strike three until after R3 had crossed the plate. The debate we are having is that the batter had not finished his time at bat because the pitch had not yet crossed the plate and cannot considered a batter-runner. Therefore, rules referencing batter-runner do not apply here.

[mick]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Play" means different things in different situations. For throws OOP, it's the "a legitimate attempt to retire a runner" definition. For the play in this thread it's "beginning with TOP and ending when F1 again has the ball and all action is relaxed, and includes any appeals"

Well, there is certainly some agreement on that, and it seems to be common, but unwritten, knowledge.


Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

If the runnner crosses the plate is the game over ?
Do we wait to see if the batter strikes out ?

If the game is over in one case, why would it continue in another ?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

Actually this happened late in an 11-2 blowout with the winning team being the team at bat in this situation.

[PeteBooth]

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

FWIW,

I completely agree with PeteBooth's above post.

Originally Posted by mick

Now I am picturing [based on the original post] the runner being the winning run and the batter being the final out.

mick,

Try as I might, I cannot imagine a situation where this could be the case.

JM

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

That is the best explanation I've heard yet. I'll relay it to my association. Thanks!

[mick]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The only way R3 would be allowed to score is if R3 crossed the plate PRIOR to F1 starting his pitching motion meaning if R3 crossed the plate BEFORE TOP then he would be allowed to score. In reality virtually impossible to accomplish.

I see no difference in this OP then the following.

We have R1 less than 2 outs

R1 has a VERY BIG lead and is stealing on the play. Before the ball even gets to B1 R1 is standing on second base.

B1 K's and the ball gets by F2.

Ruling: Since during the TOP we had R1 and less than 2 outs the batter is out. It doesn't matter that R1 was standing on second base before B1 k'd

The KEY question is this:

Where is the runner at TOP.

For those old timers out there, R3 could have been the late Bob Hayes and not have been able to score BEFORE TOP even bagan.

Pete Booth

Thanks, Pete, and I apologize for being dense.
I have to be missing something.

Are we not still going to let R1 keep 2nd base, but now with one or two outs?
The 1/2-inning continues.
In the OP the game could be over, or tied.