Pitcher taking signals.

[mbyron]

Have to disagree here, Bob. The infractions penalized for a balk are listed in 6-2-4, and taking signals off the rubber is not listed there.

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate.

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

I don't see how you can justify calling a balk for this, even under FED.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Have to disagree here, Bob. The infractions penalized for a balk are listed in 6-2-4, and taking signals off the rubber is not listed there.

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

I don't see how you can justify calling a balk for this, even under FED.

Read Bob's post again. He very carefully separated the two parts of the move contained in the OP and then describe to different manners in which the first part could be accomplished.

What he is calling a balk by rule, I believe, is a pitcher simulating motions associated with pitch while not in contact with the rubber.

[Steven Tyler]

Has anybody here ever called a balk for this in a FED game?

I thought so.........

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Read Bob's post again. He very carefully separated the two parts of the move contained in the OP and then describe to different manners in which the first part could be accomplished.

What he is calling a balk by rule, I believe, is a pitcher simulating motions associated with pitch while not in contact with the rubber.

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We all know in OBR this is a "don't do that." Barring authoritative opinion to the contrary (case play, interp, etc.), I see no rationale for it to be anything else in FED.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We all know in OBR this is a "don't do that." Barring authoritative opinion to the contrary (case play, interp, etc.), I see no rationale for it to be anything else in FED.

Many people cite the penalty phase for 6-1-1, 6-1-2 and 6-1-3. PENATLY (ART. 1,2,3,): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

From article 6-1-1: The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art. 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the the pitcher's plate.

There is more, but it is not relevant to the situation......

Notice where it says intentionally contacts the rubber. That is when the pitching regulations starts. For practical purposes, the pitcher is considered an infielder until he toes the rubber. If he was to throw the ball into dead ball territory it would be a two base award. So can an infielder balk?

There is more. ART. 6-2-5, It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

So is this any movement associated with his pitch?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Garth: I don't think taking signs is a "movement naturally associated with his pitch." Ordinarily that phrase refers to pitch-like movement (windup, coming set, delivery, etc.). Words have meanings, right?

We're not connecting yet. Bob paints a picture of a pitcher on the mound, then bending over to take his signals all while stradling the rubber.

This is extremely deceptive to a runner who may easily assume that the since the pitcher is getting his signals, he's on the rubber. If this were allowed, the pitcher could then just "fling" the ball without disengaging and without stepping to the bag. This, imo, does qualify as movement naturally associated with a pitch. What are you waiting for...for him to stand up?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The relevant rule is 6-1-1, and the relevant sentence is:

The penalty listed in 6-1-1 is for an illegal pitch, which as you know occurs only if the pitcher quick pitches.

Not true in FED. In FED, many acts are illegal pitches (including all violations of 6-1-1, 2, 3), and all illegal pitches are balks if runners are on base.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=mbyron]Have to disagree here, Bob.

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate.

2 separate and distinct sentences

He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate.

Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

It is not a "do not do that" rule, however, most umpires will tell F2 to simply "knock it off" but if they continue to do it, then there is a penalty.

Simple example: F1 is straddling the rubber and looking in at F2 where F2 is giving pitching signals ie; to make it simple 1 finger for a fast ball and 2 for a curve ball.

What are you going to call?

If you do nothing and the opposing coach requests time and says "Hey Blue F1 is taking "pitching" signs not in contact with the rubber. How come you are not calling anything.

As mentioned the first time you see this as a FED umpire you are probably going to do preventative umpiring and tell F2 to go talk to F1 or if you notice this as BU get one of the fielder's attention and tell him to instruct F1 to take signs while in contact with the rubber.

However, if F1 does not "heed your advice" the next time he violated the rule then you enforce.

In FED it is not a "Do not do that" rule.

This thread reminds me of the "shoulder turn" balk that FED had until 2 yrs ago or so. many umpires would not call the "shoulder turn" balk.

It's one thing if your HS umpire association as a whole is not going to enforce the rule and it is conveyed to the coaches at the HS meeting but it's quite another for each umpire on his/her own to decide.

Pete Booth

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Have to disagree here, Bob.




2 separate and distinct sentences



Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

It is not a "do not do that" rule, however, most umpires will tell F2 to simply "knock it off" but if they continue to do it, then there is a penalty.

Simple example: F1 is straddling the rubber and looking in at F2 where F2 is giving pitching signals ie; to make it simple 1 finger for a fast ball and 2 for a curve ball.

What are you going to call?

If you do nothing and the opposing coach requests time and says "Hey Blue F1 is taking "pitching" signs not in contact with the rubber. How come you are not calling anything.

As mentioned the first time you see this as a FED umpire you are probably going to do preventative umpiring and tell F2 to go talk to F1 or if you notice this as BU get one of the fielder's attention and tell him to instruct F1 to take signs while in contact with the rubber.

However, if F1 does not "heed your advice" the next time he violated the rule then you enforce.

In FED it is not a "Do not do that" rule.

This thread reminds me of the "shoulder turn" balk that FED had until 2 yrs ago or so. many umpires would not call the "shoulder turn" balk.

It's one thing if your HS umpire association as a whole is not going to enforce the rule and it is conveyed to the coaches at the HS meeting but it's quite another for each umpire on his/her own to decide.

Pete Booth

Pete:

I think you are missing the point that Jim Thompson and I are making and that is the NFHS Rules do not prohibit the pitcher from taking signs from the catcher when not in contact with the pitcher's plate, it just states that the pitcher shall take his signals from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher's plate. Requiring the pitcher to take signs or simulate taking signs from the catcher while in contact with the picther's plate is to prevent a quick pitch. If the picher takes signs while not in contact with the picther's plate is NOT a "stop doing that" because the rules do not prohibit the pitcher from doing it. If the pitcher engages the pitcher's plate and DOES NOT take or simulate taking signs from the cather, then the pitcher has indeed committed a balk.

It is a situation that requires the umpires to not go looking for a problem when no problem exists.

And when the offensive coach requests time to tell me that the pitcher was taking signs from the catcher while not in contact the pitcher's plate I will tell him that the pitcher has not done anything illegal.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

Why do we have this argument every 6 weeks or so? It's nuts.

The law says you must stop at a stop sign before proceeding.

It's not illegal to stop 10 feet before the stop sign, as long as you still stop AT the stop sign.

It's not illegal to take signs from behind the rubber, beside the rubber, or freaking third base, as long as you abide by the rule that says you have to take them (read: appear to take them) while on the rubber. EVERY clinic I've ever gone to has covered this. And most of you guys who claim this "nothing" act is illegal have been to plenty. I'm REALLY surprised this is even an issue ... yet it becomes one every couple of months.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

Why indeed.

It's the first instance of the term "pitching signs" that I've heard of.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Therefore, if F1 is taking "pitching" signs from F2 while his pivot foot is NOT in contact with the Rubber, then it is an illegal act on the part of F1 otherwise why have the rule to begin with.

Originally Posted by kylejt

Why indeed.

It's the first instance of the term "pitching signs" that I've heard of.

While the others blubber and spout on like whales, now we can get to serious, useful discussion. Is there an interp which says, no rule does, that appearing to be taking signs = taking signs. Appears to be a judgment, ok, if an ump wants go go that route, more power to him.

Wait....a flash.... ...what if the signs are coming from the bench? Or there are no signs at all? Or.........

[Tim C]

Now:

It's discouraging to think umpires are having problems with pitchers taking signs while off the rubber. While there is a provision in the NFHS rules to call a balk it is confusing at best; while Official Baseball Rules may authorize an umpire to warn/eject a pitcher for repeated violations, in the real world I've not seen that happen in the 39 years I've umpired -- and I'm pretty hard-core.

Let's consider the purpose of the rule. It's designed to eliminate the possibility of a "quick pitch" by forcing the pitcher to: (a) step on the rubber, then (b) do something else before he can (c) deliver to the batter. Let's also realize that nothing in the rulebook prevents the pitcher from taking a sign from his catcher, coach, father or favorite pet whether he is on or off the rubber.

Frankly, umpires should not be concerned with such things. Our goal should be to ensure that the pitcher first takes a legal pitching position, then allows the batter a reasonable opportunity to prepare for a pitch before the pitcher delivers. Since we (I hope) agree or acknowledge that the pitcher can take a sign or other information before he steps on the rubber, I submit there is no realistic way for umpires to determine that he is not getting an additional sign from his catcher after he gets on the rubber. After all, anything from the position of the catcher's glove to the smile on his face might be the "fast ball" sign.

As long as the pitcher allows the batter reasonable time to get ready, there should be no problem. If you are having trouble with pitchers quick-pitching, the rules offer umpires plenty of power to enforce penalties.

Just my opinion,

Regards,

[GarthB]

Tee:

I have no argument with the original reason for, and intent of, the rule. I would agree that it is a non-issue. As I said earlier, I have never felt the need to enforce this rule.

I do, however, have issue with the rule being used to allow a deceptive pick-off move.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Tee:

I have no argument with the original reason for, and intent of, the rule. I would agree that it is a non-issue. As I said earlier, I have never felt the need to enforce this rule.

I do, however, have issue with the rule being used to allow a deceptive pick-off move.

Any runner that gets picked off before F1 comes set deserves exactly what he gets.