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Old Tue Jun 08, 2004, 06:09pm
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I know that the rule book says that the pitcher must take his signs while on the rubber. Ok, so pitcher takes his sign off the rubber, then he steps on and goes straight to the set position. Then if he pitches, the it is a balk, so I would call time at the end of playing action and enforce it, assuming the pitch was a strike and no one advanced?
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Old Tue Jun 08, 2004, 08:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
I know that the rule book says that the pitcher must take his signs while on the rubber. Ok, so pitcher takes his sign off the rubber, then he steps on and goes straight to the set position. Then if he pitches, the it is a balk, so I would call time at the end of playing action and enforce it, assuming the pitch was a strike and no one advanced?
Depends. In FED it's a balk and you would call it immediately, dead ball. In OBR it's a rule with no penalty listed. See 8.01. So I would tell the pitcher not to do that anymore. I think the reason for the rule may be so the pitcher can not take a sign off the rubber and step quickly on and quick pitch. But personally, I don't think I have ever called this one.
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 12:44am
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Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 01:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
Since it isn't a balk, it would best not to call one. Stick by the rules.
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 07:12am
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Quote:
Originally posted by GarthB
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
Since it isn't a balk, it would best not to call one. Stick by the rules.
So what do you do when a coach is repeatedly complaining about a pitcher taking signs off the rubber? OBR clearly states this is a "don't do that". My solution, "Coach, your pitcher must take signs while engaging the rubber. Have him fix this. I really don't want to send him home early for this."
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 08:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
Quote:
Originally posted by GarthB
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
Since it isn't a balk, it would best not to call one. Stick by the rules.
So what do you do when a coach is repeatedly complaining about a pitcher taking signs off the rubber? OBR clearly states this is a "don't do that". My solution, "Coach, your pitcher must take signs while engaging the rubber. Have him fix this. I really don't want to send him home early for this."
Options:

1) Tell the coah the rule says the pitcher shall take signs from the catcher while on the rubber. It doesnt' say "all signs" nor does it say "shall not take signs while off the rubber." Tell the coach that the pitcher *is* taking signs while on the rubber.

2) Explain that the purpose of the rule is to "enforce" the natural rhythm of the game -- pitcher takes rubber, runner gets a little lead, pitcher goes set, runner gets a bigger lead. As long as this is happening, the intent of the rule is satisfied.

3) Quietly tell the catcher to not give the signs until the batter is ready and F1 is on the rubber. Prompt him several times if needed -- "wait" "wait" "here we go"

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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 10:15am
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Exclamation Where???

Jumpmaster,

Where does OBR say, "Don't do that."?
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 10:40am
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No need to send him home

Quote:
Originally posted by jumpmaster
Quote:
Originally posted by GarthB
Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
Since it isn't a balk, it would best not to call one. Stick by the rules.
So what do you do when a coach is repeatedly complaining about a pitcher taking signs off the rubber? OBR clearly states this is a "don't do that". My solution, "Coach, your pitcher must take signs while engaging the rubber. Have him fix this. I really don't want to send him home early for this."
There's no need to send him home early. You tell the coach to be quiet.

This commonly happens in small ball (kids that don't shave), its simply not that big a deal as long as F1 is not quick pitching.

Tell the coach there's no penalty as long as he's not quick pitching or doing something else that is actually a balk or illegal pitch.

Thanks
David
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 10:54am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jumpmaster,

Where does OBR say, "Don't do that."?
"Pitchers (a) must takes signs from the catcher while in-contact. (b) cannot habitually disengage the rubber after taking signs. (c) upon disengaging, must separate their hands.

No penalty is mandated or suggested for violation of (a) through (c). Such actions are simply prohibited. " - from J/R 1995

mick
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 11:48am
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Exclamation Not quite

Mick,
I'm sorry, but this is not OBR.
JEA / Roder / PBUC / et al are instructional manuals and guides to make it easier to umpire.
The Official Rules of Baseball and Rules of Major League Baseball have no provision for "Don't do that." It is bad information for younger officials to imply that it is an enforceable rule. It is not.

Many veteran umpires can and do influence the conduct of play on the field by telling the players / coaches to knock it off or stop doing something we find objectionable. However, say "Don't do that." to a pitcher and he does it again...now what? You tell the catcher and he ignores you. You've started something that could lead to an ejection and it was all your doing. The coach comes out and says that he wants you to show him the penalty for not complying with a "Don't do that." Do you carry Jaks/Roder with you? Will the coach care about umpire protocol that is not covered by a rule/penalty? Not likely, but what can we do?

If the guy wants to keep doing this to gain an advantage, you've got other options (tea cup him) or tell his catcher that you are going to call time and step away from the dish every time you see him do this. He'll get the picture, and very soon. I've yet to see a decent pitcher let me do this more than once. We won't wind up with a bad ejection and won't allow him to cheat.
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 12:34pm
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Arrow Re: Not quite

Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
However, say "Don't do that." to a pitcher and he does it again...now what? You tell the catcher and he ignores you.
...But, of course, I would say, "Please, don't do that."
Then, they don't do that.
Things are simpler away from the big city.
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 01:59pm
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No penalty - "Please, don't do that."

I know you were trying to be funny.
I did not mean that post as an insult, just pointing out something that gets a lot of us worked up. I know the difference between preventative officiating and inserting yourself into the game. "Don't do that." is one of those things that leads to trouble.

A lot of people come here for answers. Unless you are working with a very experienced crew, at a level of ball that features players and coaches that know you won't allow this crap to contniue, then you'd better be able to back up your actions. Giving an instruction is an action. I've learned that breaking a guy's rhythm has more impact than being a hard ***.

Things aren't that different away from the bright lights. The same six calls get made by guys who earned their tans in the field or on it. We preach not to borrow trouble. Trying to enforce a penalty that doesn't exist is dancing with the Devil.

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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 02:46pm
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Re: No penalty - thus, not a problem

Quote:
Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
"Don't do that." is one of those things that leads to trouble....
I've learned that breaking a guy's rhythm has more impact than being a hard ***.


WindyCityBlue,
There may be a difference that I am not seeing.

It seems that if we want a pitcher to cease and desist an act, verbally telling/asking a pitcher to *not do something* is quite similar to stepping away and visually telling/asking the same thing.

I do not know why one would be considered more hard core than the other.

This scenario, where a pitcher may not even know that he's doing something wrongly, seems to have been captured 400 years ago when William Shakespeare wrote Much Ado About Nothing where a good person acted badly.

I think if it was a problem, there would be a penalty.

mick





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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 03:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by LDUB
Yes I know FED is not delayed, also FED has a clear penalty, a balk/illegal pitch. But under OBR, what should I do if a pitcher continously does this. I tell him to stop, but he continues, do I call a balk, or warn then eject, or just do nothing?
There are two reasons why the rules do not allow a pitcher to take his signs while off the rubber. First, to keep the pitcher from unnecessarily delaying the game. Second, to keep the pitcher from quickly stepping on the rubber and delivering a quick-pitch. So if the pitcher neither delays the game nor delivers a quick-pitch, I don't worry about it. If he does delay or quick-pitch, then the rules are quite clear about what I should do.
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Old Wed Jun 09, 2004, 03:34pm
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Fork in the road, one way is less bumpy, the other is wrought with trouble

I think if it was a problem, there would be a penalty.

My point exactly. There is no defined penalty, so when you say "Please don't do that." and he ignores you, you are the one that is in trouble. You now have to make a decision, do I escalate this and risk having someone call me on enforcing a rule without a penalty. I choose the other route. If you've asked the catcher not to give a sign until the batter is ready and looking at the pitcher and that doesn't solve it, then I wait for the next infraction and call "Time". I step away and when the catcher asks what's wrong, I tell him that the pitcher did it again. If it continues, then I know that they are screwing with me and I always win this battle. The strike zone shrinks and after a pitch or two, they get the picture. If not, I'll have a new battery in front of me very soon, for arguing balls and strikes. That penalty is clear and enforceable.
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