... and I criticize LL umps!

[aceholleran]

Friday night, Phils @ Cubs. I saw only the highlights on ESPN.

Carloz Ruiz, at head end of potential 6-4-3 DP, goes barrel-a$$ing into 2B, taking out Marcus Giles. It was almost a football rolling block. B-R safe at first, even though Giles did get a throw off. No call at second other than Ruiz out.

Of course, ESPN focused on the brouhaha that ensued, with a little contremps between Giles and Ruiz. THEN, ESPN tells us that umps have finally called out B-R for Ruiz's INT. No call when it happened though.

Bill Welke at 2B, BTW.

I have to admit, if I saw this in W-port, and the right call wasn't made until well after the play phase was over, I would have been screaming blue murder.

Ace

[PeteBooth]

This is PRO ball we are talking about. That rule about having to at least reach the base with your hand is virtually not called in a PRO game. We have seen many examples over the years. Albert Belle comes to mind etc.

That's one of the main reasons for having the FPSR. If memory serves F4 was removed because of an injury. The player went "right at" the fielder" not the base.

If that doesn't meet the criteria "willfully and deliberately with obvious intent" I do not know what does.

In PRO ball for the most part runners have "carte blanche"

Since you are speaking of LL it is amazing that LL does not have any sliding restrictions. They have a joke of a safety rule called 7.08(a)3 however, in order for that to be in effect the fielder MUST have the ball AND be waiting to make a tag which is hardly ever the case.

In the LLWS/Regions we already saw a pop-up slide that effected the play but because LL has no sliding restrictions this is legal.

In a nutshell, I doubt even in the LLWS that the umpire would ring up 2 outs on the play you are talking about in the Phils @ Cubs game.

In HS and NCAA we have 2 outs on this play. In LL it would be questionable. That's why IMO< amateur leagues especailly youth leagues should have a FPSR.

Pete Booth

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

This is PRO ball we are talking about. That rule about having to at least reach the base with your hand is virtually not called in a PRO game. We have seen many examples over the years. Albert Belle comes to mind etc.

That's one of the main reasons for having the FPSR. If memory serves F4 was removed because of an injury. The player went "right at" the fielder" not the base.

If that doesn't meet the criteria "willfully and deliberately with obvious intent" I do not know what does.

In PRO ball for the most part runners have "carte blanche"

Since you are speaking of LL it is amazing that LL does not have any sliding restrictions. They have a joke of a safety rule called 7.08(a)3 however, in order for that to be in effect the fielder MUST have the ball AND be waiting to make a tag which is hardly ever the case.

In the LLWS/Regions we already saw a pop-up slide that effected the play but because LL has no sliding restrictions this is legal.

In a nutshell, I doubt even in the LLWS that the umpire would ring up 2 outs on the play you are talking about in the Phils @ Cubs game.

In HS and NCAA we have 2 outs on this play. In LL it would be questionable. That's why IMO< amateur leagues especailly youth leagues should have a FPSR.

Pete Booth

In 2007, pop-up slides were made legal in NCAA baseball, even if they resulted in contact. What is the fielder doing so close to the base? The fielder shouldn't have carte blanche to make a play. By the end of the season, most DPs had R1 popping up at second. Turned properly, R1 had no effect on the pivot.

The play in LL was LEGAL. Again, why should the fielder have a free pass to make the play right at the base without turning a proper pivot?

[kylejt]

First, it was the Phils vs. Padres.

The block was pretty obvious, by everyone except U2. I looked like a pulling guard taking out a linebacker. R1 was called out, and when the umpires got together they called INT, thus calling the BR out AND returning R3 back to third. Warning were issued to both benches before the next pitch. This being the first game of a three game set, nothing should take place until later in Sunday's game anyway.

Giles came out of the game in the later innings. (fine, because he's not hitting his weight). The bench clearing brew ha ha that ensued was pretty comical only be cause a late attendee needed to zip up before entering the scrum.

[greymule]

MLB films from decades ago show clearly that runners were expected to try to break up double plays however they could, short of reaching up and catching the throw. Even obvious deviation from the baseline, ten feet from being able to reach the bag with hand or foot, was simply accepted. Rolling blocks were common and utterly ignored by the umpires. The rule book said one thing; the ballpark said another.

The play in the recent Phils' game shows that the standard is slightly stricter now, even though the umpires had to huddle to decide it was INT.

brew ha ha

I like that one. Beer that makes you laugh. Not as good as a recent "pass mustard" post, though.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by greymule

MLB films from decades ago show clearly that runners were expected to try to break up double plays however they could, short of reaching up and catching the throw. Even obvious deviation from the baseline, ten feet from being able to reach the bag with hand or foot, was simply accepted. Rolling blocks were common and utterly ignored by the umpires. The rule book said one thing; the ballpark said another.

Fs were allowed "in the vicinity" FO calls to combat this ridiculous "football is baseball" mentality. The whole sitch was st00pid.

[Jim Porter]

It was San Diego @ Philadelphia, actually. The Cubbies were in Arizona -- I know because I worked that game.

Here's the video:
SD vs Phi take-out at second

[SanDiegoSteve]

Ok, I have remained silent on this way too long (I know, so why am I spoiling a good thing by talking now?).

This scrub on the Phillies went out of his way to make a cheap shot on Marcus Giles as he was trying to complete a double play. This moron made no attempt to reach the base, didn't really slide at all, gave Giles a forearm shiver on top of everything else.

Now Giles has a hip pointer and a huge bruise plus other injuries and had to be placed on the 15 day DL.

I find it horrific that many members of the Phillies (not all fortunately) blamed Giles for it!! The Philadelphia media was blaming Giles for it!! And the moronic Phillies fans are just a bunch of psychos.

Here are some things the good folks who booed Santa Claus did in the City of Brotherly Love:

1) Booed and heckled Marcus Giles his next time up, before he had to come out of the game.

2) Called for their pitchers to throw at Brian Giles the rest of the series.

3) Cheered whenever their pitcher hit a Padres batter (how sick is that?)

The team joined in by misreading Milton Bradley when he threw his bat in the direction of their dugout. He was throwing his bat because he thought he had flied out, when actually the ball carried for a HR because of the bandbox they play in can't hold a can of corn.

So naturally the fans picked up the beat and booed Bradley and taunted him with "you're no good" heckles. I guess they found out he really is pretty good when he launched the ball 15 rows up into the second deck in right center.

Philly fans think they're really tough I suppose. They really just show their ignorance. It's been that way forever.

If anyone here is a Philadelphia sports fan and you don't act like this, then this post is not directed at you. Not all fans are imbeciles.

[jicecone]

Come on Steve , tell us how you really feel about this, don't hold back.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Next time I'll give more details.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Come on Steve , tell us how you really feel about this, don't hold back.

I can't believe you missed it. It seemed so obvious to me when I read the post...

He's a Phillies fan.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Ok, I have remained silent on this way too long (I know, so why am I spoiling a good thing by talking now?).

This scrub on the Phillies went out of his way to make a cheap shot on Marcus Giles as he was trying to complete a double play. This moron made no attempt to reach the base, didn't really slide at all, gave Giles a forearm shiver on top of everything else.

Now Giles has a hip pointer and a huge bruise plus other injuries and had to be placed on the 15 day DL.

I find it horrific that many members of the Phillies (not all fortunately) blamed Giles for it!! The Philadelphia media was blaming Giles for it!! And the moronic Phillies fans are just a bunch of psychos.

Here are some things the good folks who booed Santa Claus did in the City of Brotherly Love:

1) Booed and heckled Marcus Giles his next time up, before he had to come out of the game.

2) Called for their pitchers to throw at Brian Giles the rest of the series.

3) Cheered whenever their pitcher hit a Padres batter (how sick is that?)

The team joined in by misreading Milton Bradley when he threw his bat in the direction of their dugout. He was throwing his bat because he thought he had flied out, when actually the ball carried for a HR because of the bandbox they play in can't hold a can of corn.

So naturally the fans picked up the beat and booed Bradley and taunted him with "you're no good" heckles. I guess they found out he really is pretty good when he launched the ball 15 rows up into the second deck in right center.

Philly fans think they're really tough I suppose. They really just show their ignorance. It's been that way forever.

If anyone here is a Philadelphia sports fan and you don't act like this, then this post is not directed at you. Not all fans are imbeciles.

Anyone who brings up the snowball and Santa incident can't be taken seriously. That happened in the 1960s.

[greymule]

Hey, I've been to a lot of Phillies' games, and plenty of the fans aren't bums.

Once after a game I saw an elderly woman stumble and fall to the pavement right outside the stadium. There were many Phillies' fans nearby, and not a single one kicked her or robbed her.

So there.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Anyone who brings up the snowball and Santa incident can't be taken seriously. That happened in the 1960s.

I know, I was there in the 1960s. I was working from memory.

[DG]

The "takeout" was like many I have seen in the past in MLB. The runner was in reach of the base but his intent to break up the DP was clear.

I was surprised to see INT called with 2 outs and runner returned to 3B because I don't recall seeing this anytime in the past in MLB when the runner was within reach of the bag. The ruling did not come immediately and the fact that an umpire discussion was held before making the call is significant.

For those that don't remember, look up Pete Rose vs. Ray Fosse to see what MLB will allow by rule, or lack thereof. Compared to many, many collisions at the plate, or around 2B, I have seen over the years in MLB this was not worth the attention given to it.