Smittyisms

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Quiz:

R2 stealing third, F2 fires down. F5 receives ball before R2 begins head first slide. F5 lays glove down six inches on 2nd base side of the bag. Everyone, including his coach see R2 slides into the tag clearly before the bag, but you, and only you, think that you saw his right hand touch the bag a micro-second before his left hand touched the glove.

Your call?

Exactly, my call, not anyone elses, not the folks in the gandstand, not the coaches and not F5.
SAFE
If you are implying that you would call out, would that be too placate the spectators or the def coach?

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

And all this time I thought I was the one hired to be the impartial arbiter, instead I'm nothing more than a tool

You have finally said something I agree with.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

Because the *right* call is the call obvious to everyone. If the whole world sees an out, by golly it's an out. What kind of an umpire would say that it wasn't? Our very jobs are to ensure that one team does not gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. It isn't about microscoping and minutiae.

It's not a Smittyism, it's advanced umpiring. It's how such concepts like the phantom tag play and the neighborhood play came to be -- two techniques we see employed by the big boys in MLB on a daily basis.

A few years back there was a rookie working the plate in a MLB game. I can only remember that the Boston Red Sox were on defense. The bases were loaded with one out. There was a sharp grounder to the shortstop. He threw to the catcher in plenty of time to get the runner from third on the force. R3 was out by 6 steps. To the whole world's surprise, the rookie called the runner safe.

It took a look at the replays from two different camera angles before it could be ascertained that the catcher's toes were on the dirt in front of the plate, and just before he caught the throw his heel came up off the plate.

It was a very bad call, and it cost the rookie his job in The Show. He went back to AAA and hasn't filled in since. The reason is simple -- he had obviously not developed the instinct required to make the call that's obvious to everyone, nor had he developed the judgment on exactly when to use it.

If you don't like these concepts, that's okay. A lot of amateur umpires are taken aback when they first learn of them. Some never get it. But you'd be wise to understand them and try incorporating them over time.

When the world sees a color and calls it brown, don't be an overbearing oaf and insist it's burnt sienna. Agree with the world and say it's brown. It's their reality that matters, not yours.

Great Jim

EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY

Some day it will all come to you, and you will understand why erasers are on pencils, there is a delete key on your keyboard, factors of safety are used in engineering calculations and baseball will NEVER, be played perfectly or officiated perfectly, as long as humans are part of it.

But, until then, keep pounding your head on the wall, us old guys DON'T KNOW NUTTING.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Jim Porter

Because the *right* call is the call obvious to everyone. If the whole world sees an out, by golly it's an out. What kind of an umpire would say that it wasn't? Our very jobs are to ensure that one team does not gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. It isn't about microscoping and minutiae.

It's not a Smittyism, it's advanced umpiring. It's how such concepts like the phantom tag play and the neighborhood play came to be -- two techniques we see employed by the big boys in MLB on a daily basis.

A few years back there was a rookie working the plate in a MLB game. I can only remember that the Boston Red Sox were on defense. The bases were loaded with one out. There was a sharp grounder to the shortstop. He threw to the catcher in plenty of time to get the runner from third on the force. R3 was out by 6 steps. To the whole world's surprise, the rookie called the runner safe.

It took a look at the replays from two different camera angles before it could be ascertained that the catcher's toes were on the dirt in front of the plate, and just before he caught the throw his heel came up off the plate.

It was a very bad call, and it cost the rookie his job in The Show. He went back to AAA and hasn't filled in since. The reason is simple -- he had obviously not developed the instinct required to make the call that's obvious to everyone, nor had he developed the judgment on exactly when to use it.

If you don't like these concepts, that's okay. A lot of amateur umpires are taken aback when they first learn of them. Some never get it. But you'd be wise to understand them and try incorporating them over time.

When the world sees a color and calls it brown, don't be an overbearing oaf and insist it's burnt sienna. Agree with the world and say it's brown. It's their reality that matters, not yours.

Jim,

I agree with almost everything your saying. In fact, that was exactly how it was taught to me at umpire school in 1997.

However, I will add this: MLB has changed. I have heard direct from a horse's mouth (one of my old mentors who is in MLB). Over dinner he bluntly told me that MLB had changed and had changed very quickly.

With the proliferation of TV cameras (EVERY game (especially now that Montreal is out of the league) has multiple cameras AND the stadiums have tv monitors located throughout the stadium), MLB umpires today ONLY care about getting the play right. And "right" now means: what everyone will see WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE REPLAY on tv.

While the "neighborhood" play at second base on the front end of a double-play is still there (because everybody wants to prevent injuries)...the old addage "if the ball beats the runner, call him out" has died. The MLB boys now CARE (a lot) that the tag is actually applied before the runner hits the base. WHY? Because they will be crucified on TV (during the game and during Sportscenter) if they get it wrong.

Announcers don't get the "unwritten" rules. If you call a guy "out" during Game 7 of the a post-season series because the ball beat the runner and everyone thought he was out....but replays show the tag wasn't actually applied: then the umpire is going to be crucified for a long, long time.

Calling balls and strikes in MLB is now different than calling balls and strikes in AAA or below. Ques-Tec doesn't care how the catcher "receives" the ball, and neither do the MLB higher-ups. Calling plays on the bases has similarly changed.

As my mentor stated, "its a matter of self-preservation."

[PeteBooth]

lawump]Jim,

With the proliferation of TV cameras (EVERY game (especially now that Montreal is out of the league) has multiple cameras AND the stadiums have tv monitors located throughout the stadium), MLB umpires today ONLY care about getting the play right. And "right" now means: what everyone will see WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE REPLAY on tv.

Even IR isn't conclusive some-times. For the most part the initial IR tells us nothing. It's not until the networks use the SUPER-SLO MO camera angles and even then it's hard to tell some-times.

Personally I think the game has changed for the worse. This getting the call right business is way over-hyped and IMO is ruining the game.

Umpires are going to make mistakes. In addtion, subscribing to Jim's theory adds more consistency to the game meaning it's called the EXACT same way for both teams.

I am not in the major leagues but I have a math theory that works for me.

Good Quality throw beats the runner by several steps + Tag where it is supposed to be = OUT whether its yesterday, today or tomorrow. It's the same for both teams so no-one is gaining an advantage.


NOTE: We are not talking about Bang bang or coin flip type plays.

As with most of these type discussions to each his own.


Pete Booth

[lawump]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Even IR isn't conclusive some-times. For the most part the initial IR tells us nothing. It's not until the networks use the SUPER-SLO MO camera angles and even then it's hard to tell some-times.

Personally I think the game has changed for the worse. This getting the call right business is way over-hyped and IMO is ruining the game.

Umpires are going to make mistakes. In addtion, subscribing to Jim's theory adds more consistency to the game meaning it's called the EXACT same way for both teams.

I am not in the major leagues but I have a math theory that works for me.

Good Quality throw beats the runner by several steps + Tag where it is supposed to be = OUT whether its yesterday, today or tomorrow. It's the same for both teams so no-one is gaining an advantage.


NOTE: We are not talking about Bang bang or coin flip type plays.

As with most of these type discussions to each his own.


Pete Booth

Pete,

Let me say first, that I agree with your "math theory" (LOL)...as I stated above: that is how I was taught at umpire school.

I agree that IR isn't always conclusive...but many times it is. As a result (as you acknowledged) that is why MLB umps have changed (in a lot of ways). That's all I was stating.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Quiz:

R2 stealing third, F2 fires down. F5 receives ball before R2 begins head first slide. F5 lays glove down six inches on 2nd base side of the bag. Everyone, including his coach see R2 slides into the tag clearly before the bag, but you, and only you, think that you saw his right hand touch the bag a micro-second before his left hand touched the glove.

Your call?

It depends on the slide.

Here's two consecutive plays from a game a couple of years ago; I was BU.

R1 stealing. Throw in plenty of time, tag in front of the base (toward first). R1 head first slide. Shows the left hand, then takes it away at the same time as he reaches for the outside of the base with the right hand. Call: Safe. Some defenders saw the move; some didn't. I don't recall what the spectators saw.

A couple of pitches later, now R2 steals third. Same throw, same tag, different slide. R2 goes straight into the base. Call: Out. R2 gets up and trots to his position, but says to me: "He never tagged me. My hads went on either side of the glove. Still, I went straight in, so that was a good call."

One of the posters on the basketball side says, "Don't be a plumber." That is, don't go looking for ****.

I interpret that as look at what you need to look at. If the throw is there, the tag is there and the slide is "normal", I've seen all I need to see (that's the second play above). If something is different, I look harder (that's the first play above).

Same thing on the "neighborhood play" -- if everyone does what they're supposed to be doing, I've seen enough -- I don't look for the miss. If something is amiss, then I look to see what really happened.

shrug. works for me (for now).

[njdevs00cup]

R1 at 1B trots to second base on a ball hit to F8, who misplays the ball. Third base coach emphatically signals R1 to third when he sees the misplay.
R1 picks him up late. Ball beats him by ten feet, lazy slide, tag, he's out!

R1 pops up and says, "he missed the tag!" Third base coach, "shut your mouth, the ball beat you and wouldn't have if you were hustling. Get your *ss of the field and sit!"

I can only say WOW to some of these posts!

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It depends on the slide.

Here's two consecutive plays from a game a couple of years ago; I was BU.

R1 stealing. Throw in plenty of time, tag in front of the base (toward first). R1 head first slide. Shows the left hand, then takes it away at the same time as he reaches for the outside of the base with the right hand. Call: Safe. Some defenders saw the move; some didn't. I don't recall what the spectators saw.

A couple of pitches later, now R2 steals third. Same throw, same tag, different slide. R2 goes straight into the base. Call: Out. R2 gets up and trots to his position, but says to me: "He never tagged me. My hads went on either side of the glove. Still, I went straight in, so that was a good call."

One of the posters on the basketball side says, "Don't be a plumber." That is, don't go looking for ****.

I interpret that as look at what you need to look at. If the throw is there, the tag is there and the slide is "normal", I've seen all I need to see (that's the second play above). If something is different, I look harder (that's the first play above).

Same thing on the "neighborhood play" -- if everyone does what they're supposed to be doing, I've seen enough -- I don't look for the miss. If something is amiss, then I look to see what really happened.

shrug. works for me (for now).

Exactly the way I've called it for years. The good umpires know the difference, the "not so good umpires" will continue to make a guess about the call.

MLB has changed some, but in reality not much. The only reason we see more "changed calls' is that just about all of the games are on TV now where before only the big market teams were on each night and the Braves.

I'm sure as we get older though it is going to change more and more. I don't know IMO if that is going to be a good thing though ...

Thansk
David

I started umpiring 21 years ago. Certainly, I umpired a long time in the "old skool" way.

So now the NCAA has this "Get the call right" concept going on. Great!

Here is what I have found.

Most coaches don't abuse this at all. If I seek help from my partner and the call goes against the coach who asked, they usually accept it and often will thank me for asking.

I have found too that many coaches are a LOT more accepting of the calls that seem to be "obvious" the wrong way (like it seemed like an obvious tag, except the fielder did not actually put the tag on). Some coaches I have talked to about this say "It is a good learning experience for the players".

MANY coaches I have talked to like that I don't call the runner out on the "neighborhood play" , and admit that they like that I call what I see, even if it goes against them.

One thing I have noticed about umpires. If it is for a strike or an out, you guys that subscribe to the "call the obvious ones the way everybody else sees it" are all for it. But when it concerns a ball or safe, you typically use the "we are out here for outs", and some even go as far as to say silly stuff like "Yeah, I missed it, but I missed it for an out!" complete with the wink.

Horsecrap!!! All of it is horsecrap umpiring.

I have moved on up the levels just fine calling THE GAME THAT I SEE RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME. Coaches, players, evaluators NEVER question my integrity, and players are usually quick to agree with my RIGHT call even though it went against them. They KNOW it will go both ways.

I do not find it that hard to call a consistent game just calling what I see. Are there arguements? Sure! But I don't have any more of them than the next guy.

If you think the neighborhood call, or the "ball beat the runner" call is a good idea, I first thought is you have become a dinasour in umpiring. It may still be "working" for you, but, you are losing the respect from players and coaches. Maybe you don't care about that. This would suggest you are on the downhill side of your "career" in umpiring.

Any of you "newer" guys that care to move up, consider your integrity before you subscribe to some of this old school thinking about umpiring.

Myself, I am proud to call a fair game, and have been rewarded for my hard work and integrity.

[David B]

Originally Posted by rei

One thing I have noticed about umpires. If it is for a strike or an out, you guys that subscribe to the "call the obvious ones the way everybody else sees it" are all for it. But when it concerns a ball or safe, you typically use the "we are out here for outs", and some even go as far as to say silly stuff like "Yeah, I missed it, but I missed it for an out!" complete with the wink.

I think you missed the point, but this part fits the thread well since this is definitely "Smitty" at his best.

Thanks
David

[Publius]

Umpires don't need math equations or the color-spectrum comparisons to make the call on tag plays. Just call what you see.

In the quiz II I presented earlier:

F8's throw beats the head-first sliding runner by a narrow margin, and F5 lays down a tag on R1, then throws to 2nd in an attempt to get B/R advancing there. Everyone in the park "saw" F5 tag R1--everyone but you, the PU, who had a perfect angle and who saw him tag the dirt inches in front of R1's hand, then throw to 2nd before R1 could slide into the tag.

what happened afterward made my violently argued "safe" call look even better--F5 nailed the B/R on a bang-bang play.

Now, if he had completed his tag of R1, he would not have been able to retire the B/R. The defense had enough time to get one runner, but not both, and that's how it got called by the crew. However, when you're making the call at third, you don't have a crystal ball to tell what's about to happen at 2nd. Call what you see.

Mueller, the R3 in Porter's post is out my field. Likewise, if F3 lifts his heel when he leans into a throw that beats B/R by a step or more, "he's out." Among players who drive, everyone wants and expects that call. The coaches of ten-year-olds argue that call.

I'm nowhere near as lenient on the neighborhood play as I used to be. The FPSR has removed the justification for that.

Tag plays are different than force plays or plays at 1st. If I KNOW your tag was missed or late (that is, I SAW it, not THOUGHT I saw it), safe is the right call, as well as the correct call. I don't care what Susue saw from the front row.

Call what you see.

Originally Posted by David B

I think you missed the point, but this part fits the thread well since this is definitely "Smitty" at his best.

Thanks
David

I don't think I have missed any point.

What we have is a lot of umpires who will call things the way it is obvious for everybody else so as to avoid conflict. In the old days: No conflict = Excellent job.

Call me a "smitty" (as I do NCAA games ) but if a tag is not applied, I don't care if the fielder was holding onto the ball at third since the runner took off from first, he is SAFE! If you are not standing on a bag with the ball in possession on a force play, the runner is SAFE! If you miss touching a bag by 1/2 inch and it is appealed properly, you are OUT! Etc...

I was working with a young guy who I mentor earlier this year on his strike zone. He went on and on about how he has to call this big strike zone to "keep the game moving". I listened and listened. I then asked "How long is your average game". He replied that most of them go the whole time limit.

I then asked him to start calling the "real" strike zone. He did. Game over in 1:50. One of the quickest games he had in this league.

He also discovered that the batters still swing the bat, and often swing it more when you force the pitcher to throw STRIKES IN THE ZONE!!!

I could go on and on. The point is, call the game that is really there and you gain respect. I do not have to explain any philosophy to an arguing coach this way and only need to keep track of what I actually seen! It sure is a lot easier to explain what just happened than to explain why I feel that since the rest of the world seen it as an out it is an out today.

[BigUmp56]

Let me ask you something then, Rei. Lets say you have R2 sliding feet first straight into third on a steal where the ball beat him by at least a step. Are looking for F5 to keep his glove down in front of the bag to actually make contact with the runner's foot, or are you going to allow him to make a swipe tag that's close enough for everyone to believe he applied the tag............


Tim.